719 lines
37 KiB
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719 lines
37 KiB
Markdown
---
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created_at: '2014-04-20T12:13:54.000Z'
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title: H. G. Wells’ interview with Stalin (1934)
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url: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/04/h-g-wells-it-seems-me-i-am-more-left-you-mr-stalin
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author: giorgiofontana
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points: 171
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story_text: ''
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comment_text:
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num_comments: 140
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story_id:
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story_title:
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story_url:
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parent_id:
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created_at_i: 1397996034
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_tags:
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- story
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- author_giorgiofontana
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- story_7616566
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objectID: '7616566'
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year: 1934
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---
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In 1934, H G Wells arrived in Moscow to meet Soviet writers interested
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in joining the international PEN Club, of which he was then president.
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While there, Stalin granted him an interview. His deferential
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conversation was criticised by J M Keynes and George Bernard Shaw, among
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others, in the New Statesman. First published as a special NS supplement
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on 27 October 1934.
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**Wells** I am very much obliged to you, Mr Stalin, for agreeing to see
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me. I was in the United States recently. I had a long conversation with
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President Roosevelt and tried to ascertain what his leading ideas were.
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Now I have come to ask you what you are doing to change the world . . .
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**Stalin** Not so very much.
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**Wells** I wander around the world as a common man and, as a common
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man, observe what is going on around me.
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**Stalin** Important public men like yourself are not “common men”. Of
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course, history alone can show how important this or that public man has
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been; at all events, you do not look at the world as a “common man”.
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**Wells** I am not pretending humility. What I mean is that I try to see
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the world through the eyes of the common man, and not as a party
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politician or a responsible administrator. My visit to the United States
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excited my mind. The old financial world is collapsing; the economic
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life of the country is being reorganised on new lines.
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Lenin said: “We must learn to do business,” learn this from the
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capitalists. Today the capitalists have to learn from you, to grasp the
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spirit of Socialism. It seems to me that what is taking place in the
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United States is a profound reorganisation, the creation of planned,
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that is, Socialist, economy. You and Roosevelt begin from two different
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starting points. But is there not a relation in ideas, a kinship of
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ideas, between Moscow and Washington?
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In Washington I was struck by the same thing I see going on here; they
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are building offices, they are creating a number of state regulation
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bodies, they are organising a long-needed civil service. Their need,
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like yours, is directive ability.
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## America and Russia
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**Stalin** The United States is pursuing a different aim from that which
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we are pursuing in the USSR. The aim which the Americans are pursuing
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arose out of the economic troubles, out of the economic crisis. The
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Americans want to rid themselves of the crisis on the basis of private
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capitalist activity, without changing the economic basis. They are
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trying to reduce to a minimum the ruin, the losses caused by the
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existing economic system.
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Here, however, as you know, in place of the old, destroyed economic
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basis, an entirely different, a new economic basis has been created.
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Even if the Americans you mention partly achieve their aim, ie, reduce
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these losses to a minimum, they will not destroy the roots of the
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anarchy which is inherent in the existing capitalist system. They are
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preserving the economic system which must inevitably lead, and cannot
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but lead, to anarchy in production. Thus, at best, it will be a matter,
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not of the reorganisation of society, not of abolishing the old social
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system which gives rise to anarchy and crises, but of restricting
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certain of its excesses. Subjectively, perhaps, these Americans think
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they are reorganising society; objectively, however, they are preserving
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the present basis of society. That is why, objectively, there will be no
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reorganisation of society.
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Nor will there be planned economy. What is planned economy? What are
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some of its attributes? Planned economy tries to abolish unemployment.
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Let us suppose it is possible, while preserving the capitalist system,
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to reduce unemployment to a certain minimum. But surely, no capitalist
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would ever agree to the complete abolition of unemployment, to the
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abolition of the reserve army of unemployed, the purpose of which is to
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bring pressure on the labour market, to ensure a supply of cheap labour.
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You will never compel a capitalist to incur loss to himself and agree to
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a lower rate of profit for the sake of satisfying the needs of the
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people.
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Without getting rid of the capitalists, without abolishing the principle
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of private property in the means of production, it is impossible to
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create planned economy.
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**Wells** I agree with much of what you have said. But I would like to
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stress the point that if a country as a whole adopts the principle of
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planned economy, if the government, gradually, step by step, begins
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consistently to apply this principle, the financial oligarchy will at
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last be abolished and Socialism, in the Anglo-Saxon meaning of the word,
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will be brought about.
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The effect of the ideas of Roosevelt’s “New Deal” is most powerful, and
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in my opinion they are Socialist ideas. It seems to me that instead of
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stressing the antagonism between the two worlds, we should, in the
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present circumstances, strive to establish a common tongue for all the
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constructive forces.
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**Stalin** In speaking of the impossibility of realising the principles
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of planned economy while preserving the economic basis of capitalism, I
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do not in the least desire to belittle the outstanding personal
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qualities of Roosevelt, his initiative, courage and determination.
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Undoubtedly Roosevelt stands out as one of the strongest figures among
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all the captains of the contemporary capitalist world. That is why I
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would like once again to emphasise the point that my conviction that
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planned economy is impossible under the conditions of capitalism does
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not mean that I have any doubts about the personal abilities, talent and
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courage of President Roosevelt.
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But if the circumstances are unfavourable, the most talented captain
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cannot reach the goal you refer to. Theoretically, of course, the
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possibility of marching gradually, step by step, under the conditions of
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capitalism, towards the goal which you call Socialism in the Anglo-Saxon
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meaning of the word, is not precluded. But what will this “Socialism”
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be? At best, bridling to some extent the most unbridled of individual
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representatives of capitalist profit, some increase in the application
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of the principle of regulation in national economy. That is all very
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well. But as soon as Roosevelt, or any other captain in the contemporary
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bourgeois world, proceeds to undertake something serious against the
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foundation of capitalism, he will inevitably suffer utter defeat. The
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banks, the industries, the large enterprises, the large farms are not in
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Roosevelt’s hands. All these are private property. The railroads, the
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mercantile fleet, all these belong to private owners. And, finally, the
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army of skilled workers, the engineers, the technicians, these too are
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not at Roosevelt’s command, they are at the command of the private
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owners; they all work for the private owners.
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We must not forget the functions of the State in the bourgeois world.
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The State is an institution that organises the defence of the country,
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organises the maintenance of “order”; it is an apparatus for collecting
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taxes. The capitalist State does not deal much with economy in the
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strict sense of the word; the latter is not in the hands of the State.
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On the contrary, the State is in the hands of capitalist economy. That
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is why I fear that in spite of all his energies and abilities, Roosevelt
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will not achieve the goal you mention, if indeed that is his goal.
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Perhaps in the course of several generations it will be possible to
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approach this goal somewhat; but I personally think that even this is
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not very probable.
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## Socialism and Individualism
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**Wells** Perhaps I believe more strongly in the economic interpretation
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of politics than you do. Huge forces striving for better organisation,
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for the better functioning of the community, that is, for Socialism,
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have been brought into action by invention
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and modern science. Organisation, and the regulation of individual
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action, have become mechanical necessities, irrespective of social
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theories. If we begin with the State control of the banks and then
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follow with the control of the heavy industries, of industry in general,
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of commerce, etc, such an all-embracing control will be equivalent to
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the State ownership of all branches of national economy.
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Socialism and Individualism are not opposites like black and white.
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There are many intermediate stages between them. There is Individualism
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that borders on brigandage, and there is discipline and organisation
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that are the equivalent of Socialism. The introduction of planned
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economy depends, to a large degree, upon the organisers of economy, upon
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the skilled technical intelligentsia who, step by step, can be converted
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to the Socialist principles of organisation. And this is the most
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important thing, because organisation comes before Socialism. It is the
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more important fact. Without organisation the Socialist idea is a mere
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idea.
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**Stalin** There is no, nor should there be, irreconcilable contrast
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between the individual and the collective, between the interests of the
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individual person and the interests of the collective. There should be
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no such contrast, because collectivism, Socialism, does not deny, but
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combines individual interests with the interests of the collective.
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Socialism cannot abstract itself from individual interests.
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Socialist society alone can most fully satisfy these personal interests.
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More than that, Socialist society alone can firmly safeguard the
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interests of the individual. In this sense there is no irreconcilable
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contrast between Individualism and Socialism. But can we deny the
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contrast between classes, between the propertied class, the capitalist
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class, and the toiling class, the proletarian class? On the one hand we
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have the propertied class which owns the banks, the factories, the
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mines, transport, the plantations in colonies. These people see nothing
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but their own interests, their striving after profits. They do not
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submit to the will of the collective; they strive to subordinate every
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collective to their will. On the other hand we have the class of the
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poor, the exploited class, which owns neither factories nor works, nor
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banks, which is compelled to live by selling its labour power to the
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capitalists and which lacks the opportunity to satisfy its most
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elementary requirements.
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How can such opposite interests and strivings be reconciled? As far as I
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know, Roosevelt has not succeeded in finding the path of conciliation
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between these interests. And it is impossible, as experience has shown.
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Incidentally, you know the situation in the US better than I do, as I
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have never been there and I watch American affairs mainly from
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literature. But I have some experience in fighting for Socialism, and
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this experience tells me that if Roosevelt makes a real attempt to
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satisfy the interests of the proletarian class at the expense of the
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capitalist class, the latter will put another President in his place.
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The capitalists will say: Presidents come and Presidents go, but we go
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on for ever; if this or that President does not protect our interests,
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we shall find another. What can the President oppose to the will of the
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capitalist class?
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**Wells** I object to this simplified classification of mankind into
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poor and rich. Of course there is a category of people which strive only
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for profit. But are not these people regarded as nuisances in the West
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just as much as here? Are there not plenty of people in the West for
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whom profit is not an end, who own a certain amount of wealth, who want
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to invest and obtain a profit from this investment, but who do not
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regard this as the main object? In my opinion there is a numerous class
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of people who admit that the present system is unsatisfactory and who
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are destined to play a great role in future capitalist society.
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During the past few years I have been much engaged in and have thought
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of the need for conducting propaganda in favour of Socialism and
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cosmopolitanism among wide circles of engineers, airmen, military
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technical people, etc. It is useless to approach these circles with
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two-track class-war propaganda. These people understand the condition of
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the world. They understand that it is a bloody muddle, but they regard
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your simple class-war antagonism as nonsense.
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## The class war
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**Stalin** You object to the simplified classification into rich and
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poor. Of course there is a middle stratum, there is the technical
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intelligentsia that you have mentioned and among which there are very
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good and very honest people. Among them there are also dishonest and
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wicked people; there are all sorts of people among them. But first of
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all mankind is divided into rich and poor, into property owners and
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exploited; and to abstract oneself from this fundamental division and
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from the antagonism between poor and rich means abstracting oneself from
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the fundamental fact.
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I do not deny the existence of intermediate middle strata, which either
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take the side of one or the other of these two conflicting classes, or
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else take up a neutral or semi-neutral position in the struggle. But, I
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repeat, to abstract oneself from this fundamental division in society
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and from the fundamental struggle between the two main classes means
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ignoring facts. The struggle is going on and will continue. The outcome
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will be determined by the proletarian class – the working class.
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**Wells** But are there not many people who are not poor, but who work
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and work productively?
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**Stalin** Of course, there are small landowners, artisans, small
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traders, but it is not these people who decide the fate of a country,
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but the toiling masses, who produce all the things society requires.
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**Wells** But there are very different kinds of capitalists. There are
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capitalists who only think about profit, about getting rich; but there
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are also those who are prepared to make sacrifices. Take old \[J P\]
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Morgan, for example. He only thought about profit; he was a parasite on
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society, simply, he merely accumulated wealth. But take \[John D\]
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Rockefeller. He is a brilliant organiser; he has set an example of how
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to organise the delivery of oil that is worthy of emulation.
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Or take \[Henry\] Ford. Of course Ford is selfish. But is he not a
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passionate organiser of rationalised production from whom you take
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lessons? I would like to emphasise the fact that recently an important
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change in opinion towards the USSR has taken place in English-speaking
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countries. The reason for this, first of all, is the position of Japan,
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and the events in Germany. But there are other reasons besides those
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arising from international politics. There is a more profound reason,
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namely, the recognition by many people of the fact that the system based
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on private profit is breaking down. Under these circumstances, it seems
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to me, we must not bring to the forefront the antagonism between the two
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worlds, but should strive to combine all the constructive movements, all
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the constructive forces in one line as much as possible. It seems to me
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that I am more to the Left than you, Mr Stalin; I think the old system
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is nearer to its end than you think.
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## The technician class
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**Stalin** In speaking of the capitalists who strive only for profit,
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only to get rich, I do not want to say that these are the most worthless
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people, capable of nothing else. Many of them undoubtedly possess great
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organising talent, which I do not dream of denying. We Soviet people
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learn a great deal from the capitalists. And Morgan, whom you
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characterise so unfavourably, was undoubtedly a good, capable organiser.
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But if you mean people who are prepared to reconstruct the world, of
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course, you will not be able to find them in the ranks of those who
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faithfully serve the cause of profit. We and they stand at opposite
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poles.
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You mentioned Ford. Of course, he is a capable organiser of production.
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But don’t you know his attitude towards the working class? Don’t you
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know how many workers he throws on the street? The capitalist is riveted
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to profit; and no power on earth can tear him away from it. Capitalism
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will be abolished, not by “organisers” of production, not by the
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technical intelligentsia, but by the working class, because the
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aforementioned strata do not play an independent role. The engineer, the
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organiser of production, does not work as he would like to, but as he is
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ordered, in such a way as to serve the interests of his employers. There
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are exceptions of course; there are people in this stratum who have
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awakened from the intoxication of capitalism. The technical
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intelligentsia can, under certain conditions, perform miracles and
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greatly benefit mankind. But it can also cause great harm.
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We Soviet people have not a little experience of the technical
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intelligentsia. After the October Revolution, a certain section of the
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technical intelligentsia refused to take part in the work of
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constructing the new society; they opposed this work of construction and
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sabotaged it. We did all we possibly could to bring the technical
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intelligentsia into this work of construction; we tried this way and
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that. Not a little time passed before our technical intelligentsia
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agreed actively to assist the new system. Today the best section of this
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technical intelligentsia is in the front rank of the builders of
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Socialist society. Having this experience, we are far from
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underestimating the good and the bad sides of the technical
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intelligentsia, and we know that on the one hand it can do harm, and on
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the other hand it can perform “miracles”.
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Of course, things would be different if it were possible, at one stroke,
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spiritually to tear the technical intelligentsia away from the
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capitalist world. But that is Utopia. Are there many of the technical
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intelligentsia who would dare break away from the bourgeois world and
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set to work reconstructing society? Do you think there are many people
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of this kind, say, in England or in France? No; there are few who would
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be willing to break away from their employers and begin reconstructing
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the world.
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## Achievement of political power
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**Stalin** Besides, can we lose sight of the fact that in order to
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transform the world it is necessary to have political power? It seems to
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me, Mr Wells, that you greatly underestimate the question of political
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power, that it entirely drops out of your conception.
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What can those, even with the best intentions in the world, do if they
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are unable to raise the question of seizing power, and do not possess
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power? At best they can help the class which takes power, but they
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cannot change the world themselves. This can only be done by a great
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class which will take the place of the capitalist class and become the
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sovereign master as the latter was before. This class is the working
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class. Of course, the assistance of the technical intelligentsia must be
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||
accepted; and the latter, in turn, must be assisted. But it must not be
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thought that the technical intelligentsia can play an independent
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historical role.
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The transformation of the world is a great, complicated and painful
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process. For this task a great class is required. Big ships go on long
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voyages.
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**Wells** Yes, but for long voyages a captain and navigator are
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required.
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**Stalin** That is true; but what is first required for a long voyage is
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a big ship. What is a navigator without a ship? An idle man.
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**Wells** The big ship is humanity, not a class.
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**Stalin** You, Mr Wells, evidently start out with the assumption that
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all men are good. I, however, do not forget that there are many wicked
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men. I do not believe in the goodness of the bourgeoisie.
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||
|
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**Wells** I remember the situation with regard to the technical
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intelligentsia several decades ago. At that time the technical
|
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intelligentsia was numerically small, but there was much to do and every
|
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engineer, technician and intellectual found his opportunity. That is why
|
||
the technical intelligentsia was the least revolutionary class. Now,
|
||
however, there is a superabundance of technical intellectuals, and
|
||
their mentality has changed very sharply. The skilled man, who would
|
||
formerly never listen to revolutionary talk, is now greatly interested
|
||
in it.
|
||
|
||
Recently I was dining with the Royal Society, our great English
|
||
scientific society. The President’s speech was a speech for social
|
||
planning and scientific control. Thirty years ago, they would not have
|
||
listened to what I say to them now. Today, the man at the head of the
|
||
Royal Society holds revolutionary views, and insists on the scientific
|
||
reorganisation of human society. Your class-war propaganda has not kept
|
||
pace with these facts. Mentality changes.
|
||
|
||
**Stalin** Yes, I know this, and this is to be explained by the fact
|
||
that capitalist society is now in a cul de sac. The capitalists are
|
||
seeking, but cannot find, a way out of this cul de sac that would be
|
||
compatible with the dignity of this class, compatible with the interests
|
||
of this class. They could, to some extent, crawl out of the crisis on
|
||
their hands and knees, but they cannot find an exit that would enable
|
||
them to walk out of it with head raised high, a way out that would not
|
||
fundamentally disturb the interests of capitalism.
|
||
|
||
This, of course, is realised by wide circles of the technical
|
||
intelligentsia. A large section of it is beginning to realise the
|
||
community of its interests with those of the class which is capable of
|
||
pointing the way out of the cul de sac.
|
||
|
||
**Wells** You of all people know something about revolutions, Mr Stalin,
|
||
from the practical side. Do the masses ever rise? Is it not an
|
||
established truth that all revolutions are made by a minority?
|
||
|
||
**Stalin** To bring about a revolution a leading revolutionary minority
|
||
is required; but the most talented, devoted and energetic minority would
|
||
be helpless if it did not rely upon the at least passive support of
|
||
millions.
|
||
|
||
**Wells** At least passive? Perhaps subconscious?
|
||
|
||
**Stalin** Partly also the semi-instinctive and semi-conscious, but
|
||
without the support of millions, the best minority is impotent.
|
||
|
||
|
||
|
||
## The place of violence
|
||
|
||
**Wells** I watch Communist propaganda in the West, and it seems to me
|
||
that in modern conditions this propaganda sounds very old-fashioned,
|
||
because it is insurrectionary propaganda.
|
||
|
||
Propaganda in favour of the violent overthrow of the social system was
|
||
all very well when it was directed against tyranny. But under modern
|
||
conditions, when the system is collapsing anyhow, stress should be laid
|
||
on efficiency, on competence, on productiveness, and not on
|
||
insurrection.
|
||
|
||
It seems to me that the insurrectionary note is obsolete. The Communist
|
||
propaganda in the West is a nuisance to constructive-minded people.
|
||
|
||
**Stalin** Of course the old system is breaking down, decaying. That is
|
||
true. But it is also true that new efforts are being made by other
|
||
methods, by every means, to protect, to save this dying system. You draw
|
||
a wrong conclusion from a correct postulate. You rightly state that the
|
||
old world is breaking down. But you are wrong in thinking that it is
|
||
breaking down of its own accord. No; the substitution of one social
|
||
system for another is a complicated and long revolutionary process. It
|
||
is not simply a spontaneous process, but a struggle; it is a process
|
||
connected with the clash of classes.
|
||
|
||
Capitalism is decaying, but it must not be compared simply with a tree
|
||
which has decayed to such an extent that it must fall to the ground of
|
||
its own accord. No, revolution, the substitution of one social system
|
||
for another, has always been a struggle, a painful and a cruel struggle,
|
||
a life-and-death struggle. And every time the people of the new world
|
||
came into power they had to defend themselves against the attempts of
|
||
the old world to restore the old power by force; these people of the new
|
||
world always had to be on the alert, always had to be ready to repel the
|
||
attacks of the old world upon the new system.
|
||
|
||
Yes, you are right when you say that the old social system is breaking
|
||
down; but it is not breaking down of its own accord. Take Fascism for
|
||
example. Fascism is a reactionary force which is trying to preserve the
|
||
old system by means of violence. What will you do with the Fascists?
|
||
Argue with them? Try to convince them? But this will have no effect upon
|
||
them at all. Communists do not in the least idealise methods of
|
||
violence. But they, the Communists, do not want to be taken by surprise;
|
||
they cannot count on the old world voluntarily departing from the stage;
|
||
they see that the old system is violently defending itself, and that is
|
||
why the Communists say to the working class: Answer violence with
|
||
violence; do all you can to prevent the old dying order from crushing
|
||
you, do not permit it to put manacles on your hands, on the hands with
|
||
which you will overthrow the old system.
|
||
|
||
As you see, the Communists regard the substitution of one social system
|
||
for another, not simply as a spontaneous and peaceful process, but as a
|
||
complicated, long and violent process. Communists cannot ignore facts.
|
||
|
||
**Wells** But look at what is now going on in the capitalist world. The
|
||
collapse is not a simple one; it is the outbreak of reactionary violence
|
||
which is degenerating to gangsterism. And it seems to me that when it
|
||
comes to a conflict with reactionary and unintelligent violence,
|
||
Socialists can appeal to the law, and instead of regarding the police as
|
||
the enemy they should support them in the fight against the
|
||
reactionaries. I think that it is useless operating with the methods of
|
||
the old insurrectionary Socialism.
|
||
|
||
|
||
|
||
## The lessons of history
|
||
|
||
**Stalin** The Communists base themselves on rich historical experience
|
||
which teaches that obsolete classes do not voluntarily abandon the stage
|
||
of history.
|
||
|
||
Recall the history of England in the seventeenth century. Did not many
|
||
say that the old social system had decayed? But did it not,
|
||
nevertheless, require a Cromwell to crush it by force?
|
||
|
||
**Wells** Cromwell acted on the basis of the constitution and in the
|
||
name of constitutional order.
|
||
|
||
**Stalin** In the name of the constitution he resorted to violence,
|
||
beheaded the king, dispersed Parliament, arrested some and beheaded
|
||
others\!
|
||
|
||
Or take an example from our history. Was it not clear for a long time
|
||
that the Tsarist system was decaying, was breaking down? But how much
|
||
blood had to be shed in order to overthrow it?
|
||
|
||
And what about the October Revolution? Were there not plenty of people
|
||
who knew that we alone, the Bolsheviks, were indicating the only correct
|
||
way out? Was it not clear that Russian capitalism had decayed? But you
|
||
know how great was the resistance, how much blood had to be shed in
|
||
order to defend the October Revolution from all its enemies.
|
||
|
||
Or take France at the end of the eighteenth century. Long before 1789 it
|
||
was clear to many how rotten the royal power, the feudal system, was.
|
||
But a popular insurrection, a clash of classes was not, could not be
|
||
avoided. Why? Because the classes which must abandon the stage of
|
||
history are the last to become convinced that their role is ended. It is
|
||
impossible to convince them of this. They think that the fissures in the
|
||
decaying edifice of the old order can be repaired and saved.
|
||
|
||
That is why dying classes take to arms and resort to every means to save
|
||
their existence as a ruling class.
|
||
|
||
**Wells** But were there not a few lawyers at the head of the great
|
||
French Revolution?
|
||
|
||
**Stalin** I do not deny the role of the intelligentsia in revolutionary
|
||
movements. Was the great French Revolution a lawyers’ revolution and not
|
||
a popular revolution, which achieved victory by rousing vast masses of
|
||
the people against feudalism and championed the interests of the Third
|
||
Estate? And did the lawyers among the leaders of the great French
|
||
Revolution act in accordance with the laws of the old order? Did they
|
||
not introduce new, bourgeois-revolutionary law?
|
||
|
||
The rich experience of history teaches that up to now not a single class
|
||
has voluntarily made way for another class. There is no such precedent
|
||
in history. The Communists have learned this lesson of history.
|
||
Communists would welcome the voluntary departure of the bourgeoisie. But
|
||
such a turn of affairs is improbable, that is what experience teaches.
|
||
That is why the Communists want to be prepared for the worst and call
|
||
upon the working class to be vigilant, to be prepared for battle.
|
||
|
||
Who wants a captain who lulls the vigilance of his army, a captain who
|
||
does not understand that the enemy will not surrender, that he must be
|
||
crushed? To be such a captain means deceiving, betraying the working
|
||
class. That is why I think that what seems to you to be old-fashioned is
|
||
in fact a measure of revolutionary expediency for the working class.
|
||
|
||
|
||
|
||
## How to make a revolution
|
||
|
||
**Wells** I do not deny that force has to be used, but I think the forms
|
||
of the struggle should fit as closely as possible to the opportunities
|
||
presented by the existing laws, which must be defended against
|
||
reactionary attacks. There is no need to disorganise the old system
|
||
because it is disorganising itself enough as it is. That is why it seems
|
||
to me insurrection against the old order, against the law, is obsolete,
|
||
old-fashioned. Incidentally, I exaggerate in order to bring the truth
|
||
out more clearly. I can formulate my point of view in the following way:
|
||
first, I am for order; second, I attack the present system in so far as
|
||
it cannot assure order; third, I think that class war propaganda may
|
||
detach from Socialism just those educated people whom Socialism needs.
|
||
|
||
**Stalin** In order to achieve a great object, an important social
|
||
object, there must be a main force, a bulwark, a revolutionary class.
|
||
Next it is necessary to organise the assistance of an auxiliary force
|
||
for this main force; in this case this auxiliary force is the party, to
|
||
which the best forces of the intelligentsia belong. Just now you spoke
|
||
about “educated people”. But what educated people did you have in mind?
|
||
Were there not plenty of educated people on the side of the old order in
|
||
England in the seventeenth century, in France at the end of the
|
||
eighteenth century, and in Russia in the epoch of the October
|
||
Revolution? The old order had in its service many highly educated people
|
||
who defended the old order, who opposed the new order.
|
||
|
||
Education is a weapon the effect of which is determined by the hands
|
||
which wield it, by who is to be struck down. Of course, the proletariat,
|
||
Socialism, needs highly educated people. Clearly, simpletons cannot help
|
||
the proletariat to fight for Socialism, to build a new society.
|
||
|
||
I do not under-estimate the role of the intelligentsia; on the contrary,
|
||
I emphasise it. The question is, however, which intelligentsia are we
|
||
discussing? Because there are different kinds of intelligentsia.
|
||
|
||
**Wells** There can be no revolution without a radical change in the
|
||
educational system. It is sufficient to quote two examples – the example
|
||
of the German Republic, which did not touch the old educational system,
|
||
and therefore never became a republic; and the example of the British
|
||
Labour Party, which lacks the determination to insist on a radical
|
||
change in the educational system.
|
||
|
||
**Stalin** That is a correct observation. Permit me now to reply to your
|
||
three points. First, the main thing for the revolution is the existence
|
||
of a social bulwark. This bulwark of the revolution is the working
|
||
class.
|
||
|
||
Second, an auxiliary force is required, that which the Communists call a
|
||
Party. To the Party belong the intelligent workers and those elements of
|
||
the technical intelligentsia which are closely connected with the
|
||
working class. The intelligentsia can be strong only if it combines with
|
||
the working class. If it opposes the working class it becomes a cipher.
|
||
|
||
Third, political power is required as a lever for change. The new
|
||
political power creates the new laws, the new order, which is
|
||
revolutionary order.
|
||
|
||
I do not stand for any kind of order. I stand for order that corresponds
|
||
to the interests of the working class. If, however, any of the laws of
|
||
the old order can be utilised in the interests of the struggle for the
|
||
new order, the old laws should be utilised.
|
||
|
||
And, finally, you are wrong if you think that the Communists are
|
||
enamoured of violence. They would be very pleased to drop violent
|
||
methods if the ruling class agreed to give way to the working class. But
|
||
the experience of history speaks against such an assumption.
|
||
|
||
**Wells** There was a case in the history of England, however, of a
|
||
class voluntarily handing over power to another class. In the period
|
||
between 1830 and 1870, the aristocracy, whose influence was still very
|
||
considerable at the end of the eighteenth century, voluntarily, without
|
||
a severe struggle, surrendered power to the bourgeoisie, which serves as
|
||
a sentimental support of the monarchy. Subsequently, this transference
|
||
of power led to the establishment of the rule of the financial
|
||
oligarchy.
|
||
|
||
**Stalin** But you have imperceptibly passed from questions of
|
||
revolution to questions of reform. This is not the same thing. Don’t you
|
||
think that the Chartist movement played a great role in the reforms in
|
||
England in the nineteenth century?
|
||
|
||
**Wells** The Chartists did little and disappeared without leaving a
|
||
trace.
|
||
|
||
**Stalin** I do not agree with you. The Chartists, and the strike
|
||
movement which they organised, played a great role; they compelled the
|
||
ruling class to make a number of concessions in regard to the franchise,
|
||
in regard to abolishing the so-called “rotten boroughs”, and in regard
|
||
to some of the points of the “Charter”. Chartism played a not
|
||
unimportant historical role and compelled a section of the ruling
|
||
classes to make certain concessions, reforms, in order to avert great
|
||
shocks. Generally speaking, it must be said that of all the ruling
|
||
classes, the ruling classes of England, both the aristocracy and the
|
||
bourgeoisie, proved to be the cleverest, most flexible from the point of
|
||
view of their class interests, from the point of view of maintaining
|
||
their power.
|
||
|
||
Take as an example, say, from modern history, the General Strike in
|
||
England in 1926. The first thing any other bourgeoisie would have done
|
||
in the face of such an event, when the General Council of Trade Unions
|
||
called for a strike, would have been to arrest the Trade Union leaders.
|
||
The British bourgeoisie did not do that, and it acted cleverly from the
|
||
point of view of its own interests. I cannot conceive of such a flexible
|
||
strategy being employed by the bourgeoisie in the United States, Germany
|
||
or France. In order to maintain their rule, the ruling classes of Great
|
||
Britain have never forsworn small concessions, reforms. But it would be
|
||
a mistake to think that these reforms were revolutionary.
|
||
|
||
**Wells** You have a higher opinion of the ruling classes of my country
|
||
than I have. But is there a great difference between a small revolution
|
||
and a great reform? Is not a reform a small revolution?
|
||
|
||
**Stalin** Owing to pressure from below, the pressure of the masses, the
|
||
bourgeoisie may sometimes concede certain partial reforms while
|
||
remaining on the basis of the existing social-economic system. Acting in
|
||
this way, it calculates that these concessions are necessary in order to
|
||
preserve its class rule. This is the essence of reform. Revolution,
|
||
however, means the transference of power from one class to another. That
|
||
is why it is impossible to describe any reform as revolution.
|
||
|
||
|
||
|
||
## What Russia is doing wrong
|
||
|
||
**Wells** I am very grateful to you for this talk, which has meant a
|
||
great deal to me. In explaining things to me you probably called to mind
|
||
how you had to explain the fundamentals of Socialism in the illegal
|
||
circles before the revolution. At the present time there are only two
|
||
persons to whose opinion, to whose every word, millions are listening –
|
||
you and Roosevelt. Others may preach as much as they like; what they say
|
||
will never be printed or heeded.
|
||
|
||
I cannot yet appreciate what has been done in your country; I only
|
||
arrived yesterday. But I have already seen the happy faces of healthy
|
||
men and women and I know that something very considerable is being done
|
||
here. The contrast with 1920 is astounding.
|
||
|
||
**Stalin** Much more could have been done had we Bolsheviks been
|
||
cleverer.
|
||
|
||
**Wells** No, if human beings were cleverer. It would be a good thing to
|
||
invent a Five-Year Plan for the reconstruction of the human brain, which
|
||
obviously lacks many things needed for a perfect social order.
|
||
\[Laughter\]
|
||
|
||
**Stalin** Don’t you intend to stay for the Congress of the Soviet
|
||
Writers’ Union?
|
||
|
||
**Wells** Unfortunately, I have various engagements to fulfil and I can
|
||
stay in the USSR only for a week. I came to see you and I am very
|
||
satisfied by our talk. But I intend to discuss with such Soviet writers
|
||
as I can meet the possibility of their affiliating to the PEN Club. The
|
||
organisation is still weak, but it has branches in many countries, and
|
||
what is more important, the speeches of its members are widely reported
|
||
in the press. It insists upon this, free expression of opinion – even of
|
||
opposition opinion. I hope to discuss this point with Gorki. I do not
|
||
know if you are prepared yet for that much freedom . . .
|
||
|
||
**Stalin** We Bolsheviks call it “self-criticism”. It is widely used in
|
||
the USSR. If there is anything I can do to help you I shall be glad to
|
||
do so.
|