2018-02-23 18:58:03 +00:00
|
|
|
|
---
|
|
|
|
|
created_at: '2014-04-20T12:13:54.000Z'
|
|
|
|
|
title: H. G. Wells’ interview with Stalin (1934)
|
|
|
|
|
url: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/04/h-g-wells-it-seems-me-i-am-more-left-you-mr-stalin
|
|
|
|
|
author: giorgiofontana
|
|
|
|
|
points: 171
|
|
|
|
|
story_text: ''
|
|
|
|
|
comment_text:
|
|
|
|
|
num_comments: 140
|
|
|
|
|
story_id:
|
|
|
|
|
story_title:
|
|
|
|
|
story_url:
|
|
|
|
|
parent_id:
|
|
|
|
|
created_at_i: 1397996034
|
|
|
|
|
_tags:
|
|
|
|
|
- story
|
|
|
|
|
- author_giorgiofontana
|
|
|
|
|
- story_7616566
|
|
|
|
|
objectID: '7616566'
|
2018-06-08 12:05:27 +00:00
|
|
|
|
year: 1934
|
2018-02-23 18:58:03 +00:00
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
---
|
2018-03-03 09:35:28 +00:00
|
|
|
|
In 1934, H G Wells arrived in Moscow to meet Soviet writers interested
|
|
|
|
|
in joining the international PEN Club, of which he was then president.
|
|
|
|
|
While there, Stalin granted him an interview. His deferential
|
|
|
|
|
conversation was criticised by J M Keynes and George Bernard Shaw, among
|
|
|
|
|
others, in the New Statesman. First published as a special NS supplement
|
|
|
|
|
on 27 October 1934.
|
2018-02-23 18:19:40 +00:00
|
|
|
|
|
2018-03-03 09:35:28 +00:00
|
|
|
|
|
2018-02-23 18:19:40 +00:00
|
|
|
|
|
2018-03-03 09:35:28 +00:00
|
|
|
|
**Wells** I am very much obliged to you, Mr Stalin, for agreeing to see
|
|
|
|
|
me. I was in the United States recently. I had a long conversation with
|
|
|
|
|
President Roosevelt and tried to ascertain what his leading ideas were.
|
|
|
|
|
Now I have come to ask you what you are doing to change the world . . .
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Stalin** Not so very much.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Wells** I wander around the world as a common man and, as a common
|
|
|
|
|
man, observe what is going on around me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Stalin** Important public men like yourself are not “common men”. Of
|
|
|
|
|
course, history alone can show how important this or that public man has
|
|
|
|
|
been; at all events, you do not look at the world as a “common man”.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Wells** I am not pretending humility. What I mean is that I try to see
|
|
|
|
|
the world through the eyes of the common man, and not as a party
|
|
|
|
|
politician or a responsible administrator. My visit to the United States
|
|
|
|
|
excited my mind. The old financial world is collapsing; the economic
|
|
|
|
|
life of the country is being reorganised on new lines.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lenin said: “We must learn to do business,” learn this from the
|
|
|
|
|
capitalists. Today the capitalists have to learn from you, to grasp the
|
|
|
|
|
spirit of Socialism. It seems to me that what is taking place in the
|
|
|
|
|
United States is a profound reorganisation, the creation of planned,
|
|
|
|
|
that is, Socialist, economy. You and Roosevelt begin from two different
|
|
|
|
|
starting points. But is there not a relation in ideas, a kinship of
|
|
|
|
|
ideas, between Moscow and Washington?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
In Washington I was struck by the same thing I see going on here; they
|
|
|
|
|
are building offices, they are creating a number of state regulation
|
|
|
|
|
bodies, they are organising a long-needed civil service. Their need,
|
|
|
|
|
like yours, is directive ability.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
## America and Russia
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Stalin** The United States is pursuing a different aim from that which
|
|
|
|
|
we are pursuing in the USSR. The aim which the Americans are pursuing
|
|
|
|
|
arose out of the economic troubles, out of the economic crisis. The
|
|
|
|
|
Americans want to rid themselves of the crisis on the basis of private
|
|
|
|
|
capitalist activity, without changing the economic basis. They are
|
|
|
|
|
trying to reduce to a minimum the ruin, the losses caused by the
|
|
|
|
|
existing economic system.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Here, however, as you know, in place of the old, destroyed economic
|
|
|
|
|
basis, an entirely different, a new economic basis has been created.
|
|
|
|
|
Even if the Americans you mention partly achieve their aim, ie, reduce
|
|
|
|
|
these losses to a minimum, they will not destroy the roots of the
|
|
|
|
|
anarchy which is inherent in the existing capitalist system. They are
|
|
|
|
|
preserving the economic system which must inevitably lead, and cannot
|
|
|
|
|
but lead, to anarchy in production. Thus, at best, it will be a matter,
|
|
|
|
|
not of the reorganisation of society, not of abolishing the old social
|
|
|
|
|
system which gives rise to anarchy and crises, but of restricting
|
|
|
|
|
certain of its excesses. Subjectively, perhaps, these Americans think
|
|
|
|
|
they are reorganising society; objectively, however, they are preserving
|
|
|
|
|
the present basis of society. That is why, objectively, there will be no
|
|
|
|
|
reorganisation of society.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Nor will there be planned economy. What is planned economy? What are
|
|
|
|
|
some of its attributes? Planned economy tries to abolish unemployment.
|
|
|
|
|
Let us suppose it is possible, while preserving the capitalist system,
|
|
|
|
|
to reduce unemployment to a certain minimum. But surely, no capitalist
|
|
|
|
|
would ever agree to the complete abolition of unemployment, to the
|
|
|
|
|
abolition of the reserve army of unemployed, the purpose of which is to
|
|
|
|
|
bring pressure on the labour market, to ensure a supply of cheap labour.
|
|
|
|
|
You will never compel a capitalist to incur loss to himself and agree to
|
|
|
|
|
a lower rate of profit for the sake of satisfying the needs of the
|
|
|
|
|
people.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Without getting rid of the capitalists, without abolishing the principle
|
|
|
|
|
of private property in the means of production, it is impossible to
|
|
|
|
|
create planned economy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Wells** I agree with much of what you have said. But I would like to
|
|
|
|
|
stress the point that if a country as a whole adopts the principle of
|
|
|
|
|
planned economy, if the government, gradually, step by step, begins
|
|
|
|
|
consistently to apply this principle, the financial oligarchy will at
|
|
|
|
|
last be abolished and Socialism, in the Anglo-Saxon meaning of the word,
|
|
|
|
|
will be brought about.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The effect of the ideas of Roosevelt’s “New Deal” is most powerful, and
|
|
|
|
|
in my opinion they are Socialist ideas. It seems to me that instead of
|
|
|
|
|
stressing the antagonism between the two worlds, we should, in the
|
|
|
|
|
present circumstances, strive to establish a common tongue for all the
|
|
|
|
|
constructive forces.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Stalin** In speaking of the impossibility of realising the principles
|
|
|
|
|
of planned economy while preserving the economic basis of capitalism, I
|
|
|
|
|
do not in the least desire to belittle the outstanding personal
|
|
|
|
|
qualities of Roosevelt, his initiative, courage and determination.
|
|
|
|
|
Undoubtedly Roosevelt stands out as one of the strongest figures among
|
|
|
|
|
all the captains of the contemporary capitalist world. That is why I
|
|
|
|
|
would like once again to emphasise the point that my conviction that
|
|
|
|
|
planned economy is impossible under the conditions of capitalism does
|
|
|
|
|
not mean that I have any doubts about the personal abilities, talent and
|
|
|
|
|
courage of President Roosevelt.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
But if the circumstances are unfavourable, the most talented captain
|
|
|
|
|
cannot reach the goal you refer to. Theoretically, of course, the
|
|
|
|
|
possibility of marching gradually, step by step, under the conditions of
|
|
|
|
|
capitalism, towards the goal which you call Socialism in the Anglo-Saxon
|
|
|
|
|
meaning of the word, is not precluded. But what will this “Socialism”
|
|
|
|
|
be? At best, bridling to some extent the most unbridled of individual
|
|
|
|
|
representatives of capitalist profit, some increase in the application
|
|
|
|
|
of the principle of regulation in national economy. That is all very
|
|
|
|
|
well. But as soon as Roosevelt, or any other captain in the contemporary
|
|
|
|
|
bourgeois world, proceeds to undertake something serious against the
|
|
|
|
|
foundation of capitalism, he will inevitably suffer utter defeat. The
|
|
|
|
|
banks, the industries, the large enterprises, the large farms are not in
|
|
|
|
|
Roosevelt’s hands. All these are private property. The railroads, the
|
|
|
|
|
mercantile fleet, all these belong to private owners. And, finally, the
|
|
|
|
|
army of skilled workers, the engineers, the technicians, these too are
|
|
|
|
|
not at Roosevelt’s command, they are at the command of the private
|
|
|
|
|
owners; they all work for the private owners.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
We must not forget the functions of the State in the bourgeois world.
|
|
|
|
|
The State is an institution that organises the defence of the country,
|
|
|
|
|
organises the maintenance of “order”; it is an apparatus for collecting
|
|
|
|
|
taxes. The capitalist State does not deal much with economy in the
|
|
|
|
|
strict sense of the word; the latter is not in the hands of the State.
|
|
|
|
|
On the contrary, the State is in the hands of capitalist economy. That
|
|
|
|
|
is why I fear that in spite of all his energies and abilities, Roosevelt
|
|
|
|
|
will not achieve the goal you mention, if indeed that is his goal.
|
|
|
|
|
Perhaps in the course of several generations it will be possible to
|
|
|
|
|
approach this goal somewhat; but I personally think that even this is
|
|
|
|
|
not very probable.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
## Socialism and Individualism
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Wells** Perhaps I believe more strongly in the economic interpretation
|
|
|
|
|
of politics than you do. Huge forces striving for better organisation,
|
|
|
|
|
for the better functioning of the community, that is, for Socialism,
|
|
|
|
|
have been brought into action by invention
|
|
|
|
|
and modern science. Organisation, and the regulation of individual
|
|
|
|
|
action, have become mechanical necessities, irrespective of social
|
|
|
|
|
theories. If we begin with the State control of the banks and then
|
|
|
|
|
follow with the control of the heavy industries, of industry in general,
|
|
|
|
|
of commerce, etc, such an all-embracing control will be equivalent to
|
|
|
|
|
the State ownership of all branches of national economy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Socialism and Individualism are not opposites like black and white.
|
|
|
|
|
There are many intermediate stages between them. There is Individualism
|
|
|
|
|
that borders on brigandage, and there is discipline and organisation
|
|
|
|
|
that are the equivalent of Socialism. The introduction of planned
|
|
|
|
|
economy depends, to a large degree, upon the organisers of economy, upon
|
|
|
|
|
the skilled technical intelligentsia who, step by step, can be converted
|
|
|
|
|
to the Socialist principles of organisation. And this is the most
|
|
|
|
|
important thing, because organisation comes before Socialism. It is the
|
|
|
|
|
more important fact. Without organisation the Socialist idea is a mere
|
|
|
|
|
idea.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Stalin** There is no, nor should there be, irreconcilable contrast
|
|
|
|
|
between the individual and the collective, between the interests of the
|
|
|
|
|
individual person and the interests of the collective. There should be
|
|
|
|
|
no such contrast, because collectivism, Socialism, does not deny, but
|
|
|
|
|
combines individual interests with the interests of the collective.
|
|
|
|
|
Socialism cannot abstract itself from individual interests.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Socialist society alone can most fully satisfy these personal interests.
|
|
|
|
|
More than that, Socialist society alone can firmly safeguard the
|
|
|
|
|
interests of the individual. In this sense there is no irreconcilable
|
|
|
|
|
contrast between Individualism and Socialism. But can we deny the
|
|
|
|
|
contrast between classes, between the propertied class, the capitalist
|
|
|
|
|
class, and the toiling class, the proletarian class? On the one hand we
|
|
|
|
|
have the propertied class which owns the banks, the factories, the
|
|
|
|
|
mines, transport, the plantations in colonies. These people see nothing
|
|
|
|
|
but their own interests, their striving after profits. They do not
|
|
|
|
|
submit to the will of the collective; they strive to subordinate every
|
|
|
|
|
collective to their will. On the other hand we have the class of the
|
|
|
|
|
poor, the exploited class, which owns neither factories nor works, nor
|
|
|
|
|
banks, which is compelled to live by selling its labour power to the
|
|
|
|
|
capitalists and which lacks the opportunity to satisfy its most
|
|
|
|
|
elementary requirements.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
How can such opposite interests and strivings be reconciled? As far as I
|
|
|
|
|
know, Roosevelt has not succeeded in finding the path of conciliation
|
|
|
|
|
between these interests. And it is impossible, as experience has shown.
|
|
|
|
|
Incidentally, you know the situation in the US better than I do, as I
|
|
|
|
|
have never been there and I watch American affairs mainly from
|
|
|
|
|
literature. But I have some experience in fighting for Socialism, and
|
|
|
|
|
this experience tells me that if Roosevelt makes a real attempt to
|
|
|
|
|
satisfy the interests of the proletarian class at the expense of the
|
|
|
|
|
capitalist class, the latter will put another President in his place.
|
|
|
|
|
The capitalists will say: Presidents come and Presidents go, but we go
|
|
|
|
|
on for ever; if this or that President does not protect our interests,
|
|
|
|
|
we shall find another. What can the President oppose to the will of the
|
|
|
|
|
capitalist class?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Wells** I object to this simplified classification of mankind into
|
|
|
|
|
poor and rich. Of course there is a category of people which strive only
|
|
|
|
|
for profit. But are not these people regarded as nuisances in the West
|
|
|
|
|
just as much as here? Are there not plenty of people in the West for
|
|
|
|
|
whom profit is not an end, who own a certain amount of wealth, who want
|
|
|
|
|
to invest and obtain a profit from this investment, but who do not
|
|
|
|
|
regard this as the main object? In my opinion there is a numerous class
|
|
|
|
|
of people who admit that the present system is unsatisfactory and who
|
|
|
|
|
are destined to play a great role in future capitalist society.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
During the past few years I have been much engaged in and have thought
|
|
|
|
|
of the need for conducting propaganda in favour of Socialism and
|
|
|
|
|
cosmopolitanism among wide circles of engineers, airmen, military
|
|
|
|
|
technical people, etc. It is useless to approach these circles with
|
|
|
|
|
two-track class-war propaganda. These people understand the condition of
|
|
|
|
|
the world. They understand that it is a bloody muddle, but they regard
|
|
|
|
|
your simple class-war antagonism as nonsense.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
## The class war
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Stalin** You object to the simplified classification into rich and
|
|
|
|
|
poor. Of course there is a middle stratum, there is the technical
|
|
|
|
|
intelligentsia that you have mentioned and among which there are very
|
|
|
|
|
good and very honest people. Among them there are also dishonest and
|
|
|
|
|
wicked people; there are all sorts of people among them. But first of
|
|
|
|
|
all mankind is divided into rich and poor, into property owners and
|
|
|
|
|
exploited; and to abstract oneself from this fundamental division and
|
|
|
|
|
from the antagonism between poor and rich means abstracting oneself from
|
|
|
|
|
the fundamental fact.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I do not deny the existence of intermediate middle strata, which either
|
|
|
|
|
take the side of one or the other of these two conflicting classes, or
|
|
|
|
|
else take up a neutral or semi-neutral position in the struggle. But, I
|
|
|
|
|
repeat, to abstract oneself from this fundamental division in society
|
|
|
|
|
and from the fundamental struggle between the two main classes means
|
|
|
|
|
ignoring facts. The struggle is going on and will continue. The outcome
|
|
|
|
|
will be determined by the proletarian class – the working class.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Wells** But are there not many people who are not poor, but who work
|
|
|
|
|
and work productively?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Stalin** Of course, there are small landowners, artisans, small
|
|
|
|
|
traders, but it is not these people who decide the fate of a country,
|
|
|
|
|
but the toiling masses, who produce all the things society requires.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Wells** But there are very different kinds of capitalists. There are
|
|
|
|
|
capitalists who only think about profit, about getting rich; but there
|
|
|
|
|
are also those who are prepared to make sacrifices. Take old \[J P\]
|
|
|
|
|
Morgan, for example. He only thought about profit; he was a parasite on
|
|
|
|
|
society, simply, he merely accumulated wealth. But take \[John D\]
|
|
|
|
|
Rockefeller. He is a brilliant organiser; he has set an example of how
|
|
|
|
|
to organise the delivery of oil that is worthy of emulation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Or take \[Henry\] Ford. Of course Ford is selfish. But is he not a
|
|
|
|
|
passionate organiser of rationalised production from whom you take
|
|
|
|
|
lessons? I would like to emphasise the fact that recently an important
|
|
|
|
|
change in opinion towards the USSR has taken place in English-speaking
|
|
|
|
|
countries. The reason for this, first of all, is the position of Japan,
|
|
|
|
|
and the events in Germany. But there are other reasons besides those
|
|
|
|
|
arising from international politics. There is a more profound reason,
|
|
|
|
|
namely, the recognition by many people of the fact that the system based
|
|
|
|
|
on private profit is breaking down. Under these circumstances, it seems
|
|
|
|
|
to me, we must not bring to the forefront the antagonism between the two
|
|
|
|
|
worlds, but should strive to combine all the constructive movements, all
|
|
|
|
|
the constructive forces in one line as much as possible. It seems to me
|
|
|
|
|
that I am more to the Left than you, Mr Stalin; I think the old system
|
|
|
|
|
is nearer to its end than you think.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
## The technician class
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Stalin** In speaking of the capitalists who strive only for profit,
|
|
|
|
|
only to get rich, I do not want to say that these are the most worthless
|
|
|
|
|
people, capable of nothing else. Many of them undoubtedly possess great
|
|
|
|
|
organising talent, which I do not dream of denying. We Soviet people
|
|
|
|
|
learn a great deal from the capitalists. And Morgan, whom you
|
|
|
|
|
characterise so unfavourably, was undoubtedly a good, capable organiser.
|
|
|
|
|
But if you mean people who are prepared to reconstruct the world, of
|
|
|
|
|
course, you will not be able to find them in the ranks of those who
|
|
|
|
|
faithfully serve the cause of profit. We and they stand at opposite
|
|
|
|
|
poles.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You mentioned Ford. Of course, he is a capable organiser of production.
|
|
|
|
|
But don’t you know his attitude towards the working class? Don’t you
|
|
|
|
|
know how many workers he throws on the street? The capitalist is riveted
|
|
|
|
|
to profit; and no power on earth can tear him away from it. Capitalism
|
|
|
|
|
will be abolished, not by “organisers” of production, not by the
|
|
|
|
|
technical intelligentsia, but by the working class, because the
|
|
|
|
|
aforementioned strata do not play an independent role. The engineer, the
|
|
|
|
|
organiser of production, does not work as he would like to, but as he is
|
|
|
|
|
ordered, in such a way as to serve the interests of his employers. There
|
|
|
|
|
are exceptions of course; there are people in this stratum who have
|
|
|
|
|
awakened from the intoxication of capitalism. The technical
|
|
|
|
|
intelligentsia can, under certain conditions, perform miracles and
|
|
|
|
|
greatly benefit mankind. But it can also cause great harm.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
We Soviet people have not a little experience of the technical
|
|
|
|
|
intelligentsia. After the October Revolution, a certain section of the
|
|
|
|
|
technical intelligentsia refused to take part in the work of
|
|
|
|
|
constructing the new society; they opposed this work of construction and
|
|
|
|
|
sabotaged it. We did all we possibly could to bring the technical
|
|
|
|
|
intelligentsia into this work of construction; we tried this way and
|
|
|
|
|
that. Not a little time passed before our technical intelligentsia
|
|
|
|
|
agreed actively to assist the new system. Today the best section of this
|
|
|
|
|
technical intelligentsia is in the front rank of the builders of
|
|
|
|
|
Socialist society. Having this experience, we are far from
|
|
|
|
|
underestimating the good and the bad sides of the technical
|
|
|
|
|
intelligentsia, and we know that on the one hand it can do harm, and on
|
|
|
|
|
the other hand it can perform “miracles”.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Of course, things would be different if it were possible, at one stroke,
|
|
|
|
|
spiritually to tear the technical intelligentsia away from the
|
|
|
|
|
capitalist world. But that is Utopia. Are there many of the technical
|
|
|
|
|
intelligentsia who would dare break away from the bourgeois world and
|
|
|
|
|
set to work reconstructing society? Do you think there are many people
|
|
|
|
|
of this kind, say, in England or in France? No; there are few who would
|
|
|
|
|
be willing to break away from their employers and begin reconstructing
|
|
|
|
|
the world.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
## Achievement of political power
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Stalin** Besides, can we lose sight of the fact that in order to
|
|
|
|
|
transform the world it is necessary to have political power? It seems to
|
|
|
|
|
me, Mr Wells, that you greatly underestimate the question of political
|
|
|
|
|
power, that it entirely drops out of your conception.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
What can those, even with the best intentions in the world, do if they
|
|
|
|
|
are unable to raise the question of seizing power, and do not possess
|
|
|
|
|
power? At best they can help the class which takes power, but they
|
|
|
|
|
cannot change the world themselves. This can only be done by a great
|
|
|
|
|
class which will take the place of the capitalist class and become the
|
|
|
|
|
sovereign master as the latter was before. This class is the working
|
|
|
|
|
class. Of course, the assistance of the technical intelligentsia must be
|
|
|
|
|
accepted; and the latter, in turn, must be assisted. But it must not be
|
|
|
|
|
thought that the technical intelligentsia can play an independent
|
|
|
|
|
historical role.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The transformation of the world is a great, complicated and painful
|
|
|
|
|
process. For this task a great class is required. Big ships go on long
|
|
|
|
|
voyages.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Wells** Yes, but for long voyages a captain and navigator are
|
|
|
|
|
required.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Stalin** That is true; but what is first required for a long voyage is
|
|
|
|
|
a big ship. What is a navigator without a ship? An idle man.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Wells** The big ship is humanity, not a class.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Stalin** You, Mr Wells, evidently start out with the assumption that
|
|
|
|
|
all men are good. I, however, do not forget that there are many wicked
|
|
|
|
|
men. I do not believe in the goodness of the bourgeoisie.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Wells** I remember the situation with regard to the technical
|
|
|
|
|
intelligentsia several decades ago. At that time the technical
|
|
|
|
|
intelligentsia was numerically small, but there was much to do and every
|
|
|
|
|
engineer, technician and intellectual found his opportunity. That is why
|
|
|
|
|
the technical intelligentsia was the least revolutionary class. Now,
|
|
|
|
|
however, there is a superabundance of technical intellectuals, and
|
|
|
|
|
their mentality has changed very sharply. The skilled man, who would
|
|
|
|
|
formerly never listen to revolutionary talk, is now greatly interested
|
|
|
|
|
in it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recently I was dining with the Royal Society, our great English
|
|
|
|
|
scientific society. The President’s speech was a speech for social
|
|
|
|
|
planning and scientific control. Thirty years ago, they would not have
|
|
|
|
|
listened to what I say to them now. Today, the man at the head of the
|
|
|
|
|
Royal Society holds revolutionary views, and insists on the scientific
|
|
|
|
|
reorganisation of human society. Your class-war propaganda has not kept
|
|
|
|
|
pace with these facts. Mentality changes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Stalin** Yes, I know this, and this is to be explained by the fact
|
|
|
|
|
that capitalist society is now in a cul de sac. The capitalists are
|
|
|
|
|
seeking, but cannot find, a way out of this cul de sac that would be
|
|
|
|
|
compatible with the dignity of this class, compatible with the interests
|
|
|
|
|
of this class. They could, to some extent, crawl out of the crisis on
|
|
|
|
|
their hands and knees, but they cannot find an exit that would enable
|
|
|
|
|
them to walk out of it with head raised high, a way out that would not
|
|
|
|
|
fundamentally disturb the interests of capitalism.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
This, of course, is realised by wide circles of the technical
|
|
|
|
|
intelligentsia. A large section of it is beginning to realise the
|
|
|
|
|
community of its interests with those of the class which is capable of
|
|
|
|
|
pointing the way out of the cul de sac.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Wells** You of all people know something about revolutions, Mr Stalin,
|
|
|
|
|
from the practical side. Do the masses ever rise? Is it not an
|
|
|
|
|
established truth that all revolutions are made by a minority?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Stalin** To bring about a revolution a leading revolutionary minority
|
|
|
|
|
is required; but the most talented, devoted and energetic minority would
|
|
|
|
|
be helpless if it did not rely upon the at least passive support of
|
|
|
|
|
millions.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Wells** At least passive? Perhaps subconscious?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Stalin** Partly also the semi-instinctive and semi-conscious, but
|
|
|
|
|
without the support of millions, the best minority is impotent.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
## The place of violence
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Wells** I watch Communist propaganda in the West, and it seems to me
|
|
|
|
|
that in modern conditions this propaganda sounds very old-fashioned,
|
|
|
|
|
because it is insurrectionary propaganda.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Propaganda in favour of the violent overthrow of the social system was
|
|
|
|
|
all very well when it was directed against tyranny. But under modern
|
|
|
|
|
conditions, when the system is collapsing anyhow, stress should be laid
|
|
|
|
|
on efficiency, on competence, on productiveness, and not on
|
|
|
|
|
insurrection.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
It seems to me that the insurrectionary note is obsolete. The Communist
|
|
|
|
|
propaganda in the West is a nuisance to constructive-minded people.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Stalin** Of course the old system is breaking down, decaying. That is
|
|
|
|
|
true. But it is also true that new efforts are being made by other
|
|
|
|
|
methods, by every means, to protect, to save this dying system. You draw
|
|
|
|
|
a wrong conclusion from a correct postulate. You rightly state that the
|
|
|
|
|
old world is breaking down. But you are wrong in thinking that it is
|
|
|
|
|
breaking down of its own accord. No; the substitution of one social
|
|
|
|
|
system for another is a complicated and long revolutionary process. It
|
|
|
|
|
is not simply a spontaneous process, but a struggle; it is a process
|
|
|
|
|
connected with the clash of classes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Capitalism is decaying, but it must not be compared simply with a tree
|
|
|
|
|
which has decayed to such an extent that it must fall to the ground of
|
|
|
|
|
its own accord. No, revolution, the substitution of one social system
|
|
|
|
|
for another, has always been a struggle, a painful and a cruel struggle,
|
|
|
|
|
a life-and-death struggle. And every time the people of the new world
|
|
|
|
|
came into power they had to defend themselves against the attempts of
|
|
|
|
|
the old world to restore the old power by force; these people of the new
|
|
|
|
|
world always had to be on the alert, always had to be ready to repel the
|
|
|
|
|
attacks of the old world upon the new system.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yes, you are right when you say that the old social system is breaking
|
|
|
|
|
down; but it is not breaking down of its own accord. Take Fascism for
|
|
|
|
|
example. Fascism is a reactionary force which is trying to preserve the
|
|
|
|
|
old system by means of violence. What will you do with the Fascists?
|
|
|
|
|
Argue with them? Try to convince them? But this will have no effect upon
|
|
|
|
|
them at all. Communists do not in the least idealise methods of
|
|
|
|
|
violence. But they, the Communists, do not want to be taken by surprise;
|
|
|
|
|
they cannot count on the old world voluntarily departing from the stage;
|
|
|
|
|
they see that the old system is violently defending itself, and that is
|
|
|
|
|
why the Communists say to the working class: Answer violence with
|
|
|
|
|
violence; do all you can to prevent the old dying order from crushing
|
|
|
|
|
you, do not permit it to put manacles on your hands, on the hands with
|
|
|
|
|
which you will overthrow the old system.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
As you see, the Communists regard the substitution of one social system
|
|
|
|
|
for another, not simply as a spontaneous and peaceful process, but as a
|
|
|
|
|
complicated, long and violent process. Communists cannot ignore facts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Wells** But look at what is now going on in the capitalist world. The
|
|
|
|
|
collapse is not a simple one; it is the outbreak of reactionary violence
|
|
|
|
|
which is degenerating to gangsterism. And it seems to me that when it
|
|
|
|
|
comes to a conflict with reactionary and unintelligent violence,
|
|
|
|
|
Socialists can appeal to the law, and instead of regarding the police as
|
|
|
|
|
the enemy they should support them in the fight against the
|
|
|
|
|
reactionaries. I think that it is useless operating with the methods of
|
|
|
|
|
the old insurrectionary Socialism.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
## The lessons of history
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Stalin** The Communists base themselves on rich historical experience
|
|
|
|
|
which teaches that obsolete classes do not voluntarily abandon the stage
|
|
|
|
|
of history.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recall the history of England in the seventeenth century. Did not many
|
|
|
|
|
say that the old social system had decayed? But did it not,
|
|
|
|
|
nevertheless, require a Cromwell to crush it by force?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Wells** Cromwell acted on the basis of the constitution and in the
|
|
|
|
|
name of constitutional order.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Stalin** In the name of the constitution he resorted to violence,
|
|
|
|
|
beheaded the king, dispersed Parliament, arrested some and beheaded
|
|
|
|
|
others\!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Or take an example from our history. Was it not clear for a long time
|
|
|
|
|
that the Tsarist system was decaying, was breaking down? But how much
|
|
|
|
|
blood had to be shed in order to overthrow it?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
And what about the October Revolution? Were there not plenty of people
|
|
|
|
|
who knew that we alone, the Bolsheviks, were indicating the only correct
|
|
|
|
|
way out? Was it not clear that Russian capitalism had decayed? But you
|
|
|
|
|
know how great was the resistance, how much blood had to be shed in
|
|
|
|
|
order to defend the October Revolution from all its enemies.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Or take France at the end of the eighteenth century. Long before 1789 it
|
|
|
|
|
was clear to many how rotten the royal power, the feudal system, was.
|
|
|
|
|
But a popular insurrection, a clash of classes was not, could not be
|
|
|
|
|
avoided. Why? Because the classes which must abandon the stage of
|
|
|
|
|
history are the last to become convinced that their role is ended. It is
|
|
|
|
|
impossible to convince them of this. They think that the fissures in the
|
|
|
|
|
decaying edifice of the old order can be repaired and saved.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
That is why dying classes take to arms and resort to every means to save
|
|
|
|
|
their existence as a ruling class.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Wells** But were there not a few lawyers at the head of the great
|
|
|
|
|
French Revolution?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Stalin** I do not deny the role of the intelligentsia in revolutionary
|
|
|
|
|
movements. Was the great French Revolution a lawyers’ revolution and not
|
|
|
|
|
a popular revolution, which achieved victory by rousing vast masses of
|
|
|
|
|
the people against feudalism and championed the interests of the Third
|
|
|
|
|
Estate? And did the lawyers among the leaders of the great French
|
|
|
|
|
Revolution act in accordance with the laws of the old order? Did they
|
|
|
|
|
not introduce new, bourgeois-revolutionary law?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The rich experience of history teaches that up to now not a single class
|
|
|
|
|
has voluntarily made way for another class. There is no such precedent
|
|
|
|
|
in history. The Communists have learned this lesson of history.
|
|
|
|
|
Communists would welcome the voluntary departure of the bourgeoisie. But
|
|
|
|
|
such a turn of affairs is improbable, that is what experience teaches.
|
|
|
|
|
That is why the Communists want to be prepared for the worst and call
|
|
|
|
|
upon the working class to be vigilant, to be prepared for battle.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Who wants a captain who lulls the vigilance of his army, a captain who
|
|
|
|
|
does not understand that the enemy will not surrender, that he must be
|
|
|
|
|
crushed? To be such a captain means deceiving, betraying the working
|
|
|
|
|
class. That is why I think that what seems to you to be old-fashioned is
|
|
|
|
|
in fact a measure of revolutionary expediency for the working class.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
## How to make a revolution
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Wells** I do not deny that force has to be used, but I think the forms
|
|
|
|
|
of the struggle should fit as closely as possible to the opportunities
|
|
|
|
|
presented by the existing laws, which must be defended against
|
|
|
|
|
reactionary attacks. There is no need to disorganise the old system
|
|
|
|
|
because it is disorganising itself enough as it is. That is why it seems
|
|
|
|
|
to me insurrection against the old order, against the law, is obsolete,
|
|
|
|
|
old-fashioned. Incidentally, I exaggerate in order to bring the truth
|
|
|
|
|
out more clearly. I can formulate my point of view in the following way:
|
|
|
|
|
first, I am for order; second, I attack the present system in so far as
|
|
|
|
|
it cannot assure order; third, I think that class war propaganda may
|
|
|
|
|
detach from Socialism just those educated people whom Socialism needs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Stalin** In order to achieve a great object, an important social
|
|
|
|
|
object, there must be a main force, a bulwark, a revolutionary class.
|
|
|
|
|
Next it is necessary to organise the assistance of an auxiliary force
|
|
|
|
|
for this main force; in this case this auxiliary force is the party, to
|
|
|
|
|
which the best forces of the intelligentsia belong. Just now you spoke
|
|
|
|
|
about “educated people”. But what educated people did you have in mind?
|
|
|
|
|
Were there not plenty of educated people on the side of the old order in
|
|
|
|
|
England in the seventeenth century, in France at the end of the
|
|
|
|
|
eighteenth century, and in Russia in the epoch of the October
|
|
|
|
|
Revolution? The old order had in its service many highly educated people
|
|
|
|
|
who defended the old order, who opposed the new order.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Education is a weapon the effect of which is determined by the hands
|
|
|
|
|
which wield it, by who is to be struck down. Of course, the proletariat,
|
|
|
|
|
Socialism, needs highly educated people. Clearly, simpletons cannot help
|
|
|
|
|
the proletariat to fight for Socialism, to build a new society.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I do not under-estimate the role of the intelligentsia; on the contrary,
|
|
|
|
|
I emphasise it. The question is, however, which intelligentsia are we
|
|
|
|
|
discussing? Because there are different kinds of intelligentsia.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Wells** There can be no revolution without a radical change in the
|
|
|
|
|
educational system. It is sufficient to quote two examples – the example
|
|
|
|
|
of the German Republic, which did not touch the old educational system,
|
|
|
|
|
and therefore never became a republic; and the example of the British
|
|
|
|
|
Labour Party, which lacks the determination to insist on a radical
|
|
|
|
|
change in the educational system.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Stalin** That is a correct observation. Permit me now to reply to your
|
|
|
|
|
three points. First, the main thing for the revolution is the existence
|
|
|
|
|
of a social bulwark. This bulwark of the revolution is the working
|
|
|
|
|
class.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Second, an auxiliary force is required, that which the Communists call a
|
|
|
|
|
Party. To the Party belong the intelligent workers and those elements of
|
|
|
|
|
the technical intelligentsia which are closely connected with the
|
|
|
|
|
working class. The intelligentsia can be strong only if it combines with
|
|
|
|
|
the working class. If it opposes the working class it becomes a cipher.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Third, political power is required as a lever for change. The new
|
|
|
|
|
political power creates the new laws, the new order, which is
|
|
|
|
|
revolutionary order.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I do not stand for any kind of order. I stand for order that corresponds
|
|
|
|
|
to the interests of the working class. If, however, any of the laws of
|
|
|
|
|
the old order can be utilised in the interests of the struggle for the
|
|
|
|
|
new order, the old laws should be utilised.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
And, finally, you are wrong if you think that the Communists are
|
|
|
|
|
enamoured of violence. They would be very pleased to drop violent
|
|
|
|
|
methods if the ruling class agreed to give way to the working class. But
|
|
|
|
|
the experience of history speaks against such an assumption.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Wells** There was a case in the history of England, however, of a
|
|
|
|
|
class voluntarily handing over power to another class. In the period
|
|
|
|
|
between 1830 and 1870, the aristocracy, whose influence was still very
|
|
|
|
|
considerable at the end of the eighteenth century, voluntarily, without
|
|
|
|
|
a severe struggle, surrendered power to the bourgeoisie, which serves as
|
|
|
|
|
a sentimental support of the monarchy. Subsequently, this transference
|
|
|
|
|
of power led to the establishment of the rule of the financial
|
|
|
|
|
oligarchy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Stalin** But you have imperceptibly passed from questions of
|
|
|
|
|
revolution to questions of reform. This is not the same thing. Don’t you
|
|
|
|
|
think that the Chartist movement played a great role in the reforms in
|
|
|
|
|
England in the nineteenth century?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Wells** The Chartists did little and disappeared without leaving a
|
|
|
|
|
trace.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Stalin** I do not agree with you. The Chartists, and the strike
|
|
|
|
|
movement which they organised, played a great role; they compelled the
|
|
|
|
|
ruling class to make a number of concessions in regard to the franchise,
|
|
|
|
|
in regard to abolishing the so-called “rotten boroughs”, and in regard
|
|
|
|
|
to some of the points of the “Charter”. Chartism played a not
|
|
|
|
|
unimportant historical role and compelled a section of the ruling
|
|
|
|
|
classes to make certain concessions, reforms, in order to avert great
|
|
|
|
|
shocks. Generally speaking, it must be said that of all the ruling
|
|
|
|
|
classes, the ruling classes of England, both the aristocracy and the
|
|
|
|
|
bourgeoisie, proved to be the cleverest, most flexible from the point of
|
|
|
|
|
view of their class interests, from the point of view of maintaining
|
|
|
|
|
their power.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Take as an example, say, from modern history, the General Strike in
|
|
|
|
|
England in 1926. The first thing any other bourgeoisie would have done
|
|
|
|
|
in the face of such an event, when the General Council of Trade Unions
|
|
|
|
|
called for a strike, would have been to arrest the Trade Union leaders.
|
|
|
|
|
The British bourgeoisie did not do that, and it acted cleverly from the
|
|
|
|
|
point of view of its own interests. I cannot conceive of such a flexible
|
|
|
|
|
strategy being employed by the bourgeoisie in the United States, Germany
|
|
|
|
|
or France. In order to maintain their rule, the ruling classes of Great
|
|
|
|
|
Britain have never forsworn small concessions, reforms. But it would be
|
|
|
|
|
a mistake to think that these reforms were revolutionary.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Wells** You have a higher opinion of the ruling classes of my country
|
|
|
|
|
than I have. But is there a great difference between a small revolution
|
|
|
|
|
and a great reform? Is not a reform a small revolution?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Stalin** Owing to pressure from below, the pressure of the masses, the
|
|
|
|
|
bourgeoisie may sometimes concede certain partial reforms while
|
|
|
|
|
remaining on the basis of the existing social-economic system. Acting in
|
|
|
|
|
this way, it calculates that these concessions are necessary in order to
|
|
|
|
|
preserve its class rule. This is the essence of reform. Revolution,
|
|
|
|
|
however, means the transference of power from one class to another. That
|
|
|
|
|
is why it is impossible to describe any reform as revolution.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
## What Russia is doing wrong
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Wells** I am very grateful to you for this talk, which has meant a
|
|
|
|
|
great deal to me. In explaining things to me you probably called to mind
|
|
|
|
|
how you had to explain the fundamentals of Socialism in the illegal
|
|
|
|
|
circles before the revolution. At the present time there are only two
|
|
|
|
|
persons to whose opinion, to whose every word, millions are listening –
|
|
|
|
|
you and Roosevelt. Others may preach as much as they like; what they say
|
|
|
|
|
will never be printed or heeded.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I cannot yet appreciate what has been done in your country; I only
|
|
|
|
|
arrived yesterday. But I have already seen the happy faces of healthy
|
|
|
|
|
men and women and I know that something very considerable is being done
|
|
|
|
|
here. The contrast with 1920 is astounding.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Stalin** Much more could have been done had we Bolsheviks been
|
|
|
|
|
cleverer.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Wells** No, if human beings were cleverer. It would be a good thing to
|
|
|
|
|
invent a Five-Year Plan for the reconstruction of the human brain, which
|
|
|
|
|
obviously lacks many things needed for a perfect social order.
|
|
|
|
|
\[Laughter\]
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Stalin** Don’t you intend to stay for the Congress of the Soviet
|
|
|
|
|
Writers’ Union?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Wells** Unfortunately, I have various engagements to fulfil and I can
|
|
|
|
|
stay in the USSR only for a week. I came to see you and I am very
|
|
|
|
|
satisfied by our talk. But I intend to discuss with such Soviet writers
|
|
|
|
|
as I can meet the possibility of their affiliating to the PEN Club. The
|
|
|
|
|
organisation is still weak, but it has branches in many countries, and
|
|
|
|
|
what is more important, the speeches of its members are widely reported
|
|
|
|
|
in the press. It insists upon this, free expression of opinion – even of
|
|
|
|
|
opposition opinion. I hope to discuss this point with Gorki. I do not
|
|
|
|
|
know if you are prepared yet for that much freedom . . .
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
**Stalin** We Bolsheviks call it “self-criticism”. It is widely used in
|
|
|
|
|
the USSR. If there is anything I can do to help you I shall be glad to
|
|
|
|
|
do so.
|