875 lines
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875 lines
40 KiB
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---
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created_at: '2014-09-06T03:02:47.000Z'
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title: Epic Forum Thread on Concorde (2010)
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url: http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/423988-concorde-question.html
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author: idlewords
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points: 115
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story_text: ''
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comment_text:
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num_comments: 49
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story_id:
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story_title:
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story_url:
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parent_id:
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created_at_i: 1409972567
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_tags:
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- story
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- author_idlewords
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- story_8277343
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objectID: '8277343'
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year: 2010
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---
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[](https://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=5866333)
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Page 1 of
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103
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**1**
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[Search this
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Thread](https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/423988-concorde-question.html#goto_threadsearch)
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 13th Aug 2010, 04:32
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\#[**1**](https://www.pprune.org/5866333-post1.html)
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(**[permalink](https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/423988-concorde-question.html#post5866333 "Link to this Post")**)
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[stilton](https://www.pprune.org/members/87315-stilton)
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Thread Starter
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Join Date: Apr 2004
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Location: Planet Earth
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Posts: 1,634
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**Concorde question**
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Considering the era in which the Concorde was produced I am curious as
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to why there was no APU fitted. It would seem to have been quite an
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inconvenience at times.
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Was there ever any consideration given to fitting one and was the
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decision against the installation solely a weight issue ?
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 [](https://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5866333)
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 13th Aug 2010, 09:45
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\#[**2**](https://www.pprune.org/5866720-post2.html)
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(**[permalink](https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/423988-concorde-question.html#post5866720 "Link to this Post")**)
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[M2dude](https://www.pprune.org/members/218153-m2dude)
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Join Date: Jan 2008
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Location: FL 600. West of Mongolia
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Posts: 456
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One problem with 'Conc' was always one of weight, (for every extra pound
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you carried, another pound of fuel was required) so any APU installation
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would have to have been light, and worth the extra weight. But the
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**main** problem was one of 'where to put the darned thing. The only
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suitable space available for an APU was in the tailcone, aft of the tail
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wheel. Now a ready supply of fuel would have been available either from
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the aft trim tank, \#11, or from one of the two trim galleries. (For
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stability reasons, tank 11 was invariably left empty during ground
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transits). The real crunch however, was how to arrange pneumatic
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services from an APU: Tank 11 was directly forward of the tailcone, so
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this would have meant either ducting the pneumatics THROUGH the fuel
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tank (not a particularly good idea
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) or
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externally around the fuselage, which would have been 'draggy' to say
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the least.
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You could still have had an APU powering hydraulics, and in essence
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electrics too (the emergency generator was powered from the Green
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System), but without pneumatics for engine starting and air
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conditioning, it would really have been a waste of weight. Still, it
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really is a shame that there was no APU.
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Historically, there were 'sort of' aux power units fitted to development
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aircraft: The prototypes had two GTS's (Gas Turbine Starters), one in
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each nacelle pair, that could start the engines without an air start
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truck, but these never saw the light of day in later aircraft. The most
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unusual unit of all was the MEPU (Monogol Emergency Power Unit), located
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in the tail cone. This was manufactured by Sundstrand, and was fitted to
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all of the development aircraft. (A derivation of a unit fitted to the
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X-15\!\!). The idea was that if you had a four-engined flameout at Mach
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2, this thing would fire up, power Green and Yellow hydraulics (plus the
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emergency generator, again from the Green system), and give you power
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and control down to a safe relight altitude. The MEPU was powered by
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Hydrazine rocket fuel (unbelievably unstable) and I seem to remember
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that the thing would run for about 8 minutes. There was no way that this
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monstrosity would ever be acceptable on a commercial aircraft, and so a
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conventional RAT was developed by Dowty for the production aircraft.
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(Also, the windmilling engines would give you full electrics down to
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Mach 1.1, and Hydraulics down to about Mach 0.7, so the thing had little
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practical use when supersonic anyway).
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I hope this extended blurb helps answer your query Stilton.
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Hi Stilton, that is a question that we all used to ask ourselves; not
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having an APU was a major pain in the butt for the fleet, particularly
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at charter destinations, where air start trucks, GPU's and air
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conditioning trucks would all have to be pre-arranged.One problem with
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'Conc' was always one of weight, (for every extra pound you carried,
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another pound of fuel was required) so any APU installation would have
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to have been light, and worth the extra weight. But theproblem was one
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of 'where to put the darned thing. The only suitable space available for
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an APU was in the tailcone, aft of the tail wheel. Now a ready supply of
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fuel would have been available either from the aft trim tank, \#11, or
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from one of the two trim galleries. (For stability reasons, tank 11 was
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invariably left empty during ground transits). The real crunch however,
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was how to arrange pneumatic services from an APU: Tank 11 was directly
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forward of the tailcone, so this would have meant either ducting the
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pneumatics THROUGH the fuel tank (not a particularly good idea) or
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externally around the fuselage, which would have been 'draggy' to say
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the least.You could still have had an APU powering hydraulics, and in
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essence electrics too (the emergency generator was powered from the
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Green System), but without pneumatics for engine starting and air
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||
conditioning, it would really have been a waste of weight. Still, it
|
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really is a shame that there was no APU.Historically, there were 'sort
|
||
of' aux power units fitted to development aircraft: The prototypes had
|
||
two GTS's (Gas Turbine Starters), one in each nacelle pair, that could
|
||
start the engines without an air start truck, but these never saw the
|
||
light of day in later aircraft. The most unusual unit of all was the
|
||
MEPU (Monogol Emergency Power Unit), located in the tail cone. This was
|
||
manufactured by Sundstrand, and was fitted to all of the development
|
||
aircraft. (A derivation of a unit fitted to the X-15\!\!). The idea was
|
||
that if you had a four-engined flameout at Mach 2, this thing would fire
|
||
up, power Green and Yellow hydraulics (plus the emergency generator,
|
||
again from the Green system), and give you power and control down to a
|
||
safe relight altitude. The MEPU was powered by Hydrazine rocket fuel
|
||
(unbelievably unstable) and I seem to remember that the thing would run
|
||
for about 8 minutes. There was no way that this monstrosity would ever
|
||
be acceptable on a commercial aircraft, and so a conventional RAT was
|
||
developed by Dowty for the production aircraft. (Also, the windmilling
|
||
engines would give you full electrics down to Mach 1.1, and Hydraulics
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down to about Mach 0.7, so the thing had little practical use when
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supersonic anyway).I hope this extended blurb helps answer your query
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Stilton.
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 [](https://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5866720)
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 13th Aug 2010, 16:07
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\#[**3**](https://www.pprune.org/5867539-post3.html)
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(**[permalink](https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/423988-concorde-question.html#post5867539 "Link to this Post")**)
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[galaxy flyer](https://www.pprune.org/members/62324-galaxy-flyer)
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Join Date: Dec 2002
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Location: Where the Quaboag River flows, USA
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Age: 65
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Posts: 3,302
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Yes, **M2dude**, but how long could you remain above M1.1 with a
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four-engine flameout while drifting down? I presume you would driftdown
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above M0.7. BTW, the RAT on the F-16 is hydrazine powered as was the ME
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162 rocket interceptor.
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[](https://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5867539)
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 13th Aug 2010, 18:53
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\#[**4**](https://www.pprune.org/5867846-post4.html)
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(**[permalink](https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/423988-concorde-question.html#post5867846 "Link to this Post")**)
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[M2dude](https://www.pprune.org/members/218153-m2dude)
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Join Date: Jan 2008
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Location: FL 600. West of Mongolia
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Posts: 456
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Not quite sure about your reference to the RAT on an F16 being Hydrazine
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powered; a Ram Air Turbine is just that, using the freely rotatting
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propellor to power hydraulics, electrics or both. Or do you mean the the
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F16 has an emergency power unit? Either way, it's fascinating stuff.
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Yes, I do remember that the Germans used Hydrazine as a fuel during WW2:
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The father of one of our Concorde pilots was on an air raid to destroy
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one o the production plants there, this aviation business is such a
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small world.
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Point taken GF, but it was discovered during development flying that
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that the Olympus 593 could be relit, given sufficient IAS, at almost any
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altitude within the normal flight envelope. The variable inlet would
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even be automatically scheduled, as a funcion of N1, in order to improve
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relight performance at lower Mach numbers. I certainly agree that you
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would decelerate and lose altitude fairly quickly under these
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conditions, however a multiple flame out was never experienced during
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the entire 34 years of Concorde flight testing and airline operation.
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There was, as a matter of interest an un-commanded deployment of a
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Concorde RAT AT MACH 2\!\! (The first indications of the event were when
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the cabin crew complained about 'a loud propeller sound under the rear
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cabin floor'. A quick scan of the F/E's panel revealed the truth of the
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matter). The aircraft landed at JFK without incident, and the RAT
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itself, apart from a very small leak on one of the hydraulic pumps, was
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more or less un-phased by the event. Although it sounds horrific, a prop
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rotating in a Mach 2 airstream, the IAS it 'felt' would be no more than
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530 KTS at any time. The RAT was of course replaced before the aircraft
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flew back to LHR.Not quite sure about your reference to the RAT on an
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F16 being Hydrazine powered; a Ram Air Turbine is just that, using the
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freely rotatting propellor to power hydraulics, electrics or both. Or do
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you mean the the F16 has an emergency power unit? Either way, it's
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fascinating stuff.Yes, I do remember that the Germans used Hydrazine as
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a fuel during WW2: The father of one of our Concorde pilots was on an
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air raid to destroy one o the production plants there, this aviation
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business is such a small world.
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 [](https://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5867846)
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 13th Aug 2010, 22:14
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\#[**5**](https://www.pprune.org/5868196-post5.html)
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(**[permalink](https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/423988-concorde-question.html#post5868196 "Link to this Post")**)
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[galaxy flyer](https://www.pprune.org/members/62324-galaxy-flyer)
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Join Date: Dec 2002
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Location: Where the Quaboag River flows, USA
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Age: 65
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Posts: 3,302
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**M2dude**
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Thanks for the reply, Concorde expertise is always interesting. I should
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not have called the F-16 Emergency Power Unit a RAT, it is indeed not.
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The Concorde RAT was located aft between the engine pods, correct?
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What I found interesting is that the AC generators would remain on-line
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at all; they drop instantaneously at subsonic speeds and the associated
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N2 rpm. I believe the hydraulics on the 747 will power flight controls
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down to a pretty low IAS.
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Four engine flameout is a very unlikely event, unless one runs into a
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volcanic cloud.
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[](https://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5868196)
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 13th Aug 2010, 23:36
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\#[**6**](https://www.pprune.org/5868330-post6.html)
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(**[permalink](https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/423988-concorde-question.html#post5868330 "Link to this Post")**)
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[stilton](https://www.pprune.org/members/87315-stilton)
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Thread Starter
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Join Date: Apr 2004
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Location: Planet Earth
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Posts: 1,634
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Thanks M2Dude for your interesting and informative reply.
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 [](https://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5868330)
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 14th Aug 2010, 21:17
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\#[**7**](https://www.pprune.org/5870039-post7.html)
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(**[permalink](https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/423988-concorde-question.html#post5870039 "Link to this Post")**)
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[TURIN](https://www.pprune.org/members/46562-turin)
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Join Date: Feb 2002
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Location: UK
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Age: 52
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Posts: 2,445
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For what it's worth, I read a book years ago. "By the Rivers of Babylon"
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I think it was.
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It involved a couple of El-Al (Yes I know hard to believe) Concordes
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that had APUs fitted in the area normally used as the forward baggage
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hold. Small it would have to be to fit methinks.
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No idea if the author had researched it or just made it up to fit the
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story.
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 [](https://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5870039)
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 14th Aug 2010, 23:15
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\#[**8**](https://www.pprune.org/5870216-post8.html)
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(**[permalink](https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/423988-concorde-question.html#post5870216 "Link to this Post")**)
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[M2dude](https://www.pprune.org/members/218153-m2dude)
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Join Date: Jan 2008
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Location: FL 600. West of Mongolia
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Posts: 456
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|
||
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Thanks very much for your comments. It's true, that while supersonic, a
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windmilling Olympus engine would have sufficient N2 to keep all servics
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on line. (The hydraulic systems on Concorde also operated at 4000 PSI).
|
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The RAT itself was 'said' to be good down to approach speeds,
|
||
fortunately we never had to find out if that was true. (Although the
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||
thing was tested routinely using a hydraulic rig to drive it and check
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the variable pitch speed control). Thr RAT was in fact located and
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stowed in the fwd part of the R/H inboard elevon Powered Flying Control
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Unit Fairing. It was an absolute work of art by Dowty, to make the
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device fit into such a small space.
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Yep, an ash cloud would be particularly bad news, particularly at FL600
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Stlton
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You are most welcome, thank you for posting this topic also. These
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forums are a wonderful way for all of us out there in the aviation world
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to share and learn interesting information from each
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other.
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TURIN
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I remember reading By the Rivers of Babylon many MANY years ago. The
|
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terrorists, I seem to remember, had a bomb fitted inside Tank 11 (the
|
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rear trim tank) during construction 'before it was welded shut'. Not
|
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sure if the author had researched how aircraft were built, but still I
|
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guess it sold a copy or two. (Well at least you and I read
|
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it).
|
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Galaxy FlyerThanks very much for your comments. It's true, that while
|
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supersonic, a windmilling Olympus engine would have sufficient N2 to
|
||
keep all servics on line. (The hydraulic systems on Concorde also
|
||
operated at 4000 PSI). The RAT itself was 'said' to be good down to
|
||
approach speeds, fortunately we never had to find out if that was true.
|
||
(Although the thing was tested routinely using a hydraulic rig to drive
|
||
it and check the variable pitch speed control). Thr RAT was in fact
|
||
located and stowed in the fwd part of the R/H inboard elevon Powered
|
||
Flying Control Unit Fairing. It was an absolute work of art by Dowty, to
|
||
make the device fit into such a small space.Yep, an ash cloud would be
|
||
particularly bad news, particularly at FL600StltonYou are most welcome,
|
||
thank you for posting this topic also. These forums are a wonderful way
|
||
for all of us out there in the aviation world to share and learn
|
||
interesting information from each other.TURINI remember reading By the
|
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Rivers of Babylon many MANY years ago. The terrorists, I seem to
|
||
remember, had a bomb fitted inside Tank 11 (the rear trim tank) during
|
||
construction 'before it was welded shut'. Not sure if the author had
|
||
researched how aircraft were built, but still I guess it sold a copy or
|
||
two. (Well at least you and I read it).
|
||
|
||
 [](https://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5870216)
|
||
 15th Aug 2010, 15:22
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\#[**9**](https://www.pprune.org/5871287-post9.html)
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(**[permalink](https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/423988-concorde-question.html#post5871287 "Link to this Post")**)
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[Christo](https://www.pprune.org/members/91749-christo)
|
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Join Date: Jun 2004
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Location: Garsfontein, Pretoria
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Posts: 76
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Quote:
|
||
|
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Not quite sure about your reference to the RAT on an F16 being Hydrazine
|
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powered; a Ram Air Turbine is just that, using the freely rotatting
|
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propellor to power hydraulics, electrics or both.
|
||
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I think he got confused with the F16 JFS which does use hydrazine but
|
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like you mentioned, is most certainly not a RAT
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 [](https://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5871287)
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 15th Aug 2010, 15:54
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\#[**10**](https://www.pprune.org/5871342-post10.html)
|
||
(**[permalink](https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/423988-concorde-question.html#post5871342 "Link to this Post")**)
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[ChristiaanJ](https://www.pprune.org/members/105267-christiaanj)
|
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|
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Join Date: Jan 2005
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Location: France
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Posts: 2,319
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**TURIN**,
|
||
I've read "By the Rivers of Babylon" too..... and there is some fact
|
||
behind the fiction.
|
||
|
||
History does not relate if and where the El Al Concordes would have had
|
||
APUs.
|
||
|
||
However, history DOES relate, that the two Concordes ordered by Iran Air
|
||
WOULD have had APUs (which would have made sense in the Middle East).
|
||
Now, Iran Air was the very last company to cancel its orders, and by the
|
||
time they did, Concorde 214 (now G-BOAG) and 216 (now G-BOAF) were
|
||
already well underway (they ended up flying initially as white tails).
|
||
|
||
As a result, both 214 and 216 still have the mounting holes and fittings
|
||
for an APU. Don't ask me where, but experts know where to find them to
|
||
this day....
|
||
|
||
|
||
[](https://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5871342)
|
||
 16th Aug 2010, 12:09
|
||
\#[**11**](https://www.pprune.org/5872914-post11.html)
|
||
(**[permalink](https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/423988-concorde-question.html#post5872914 "Link to this Post")**)
|
||
[M2dude](https://www.pprune.org/members/218153-m2dude)
|
||
|
||
Join Date: Jan 2008
|
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|
||
Location: FL 600. West of Mongolia
|
||
|
||
Posts: 456
|
||
|
||
|
||
Both A/C 214 (OAG) and 216 (OAF) were Variant 192 A/C (British Unsold
|
||
A/C). 216 was later converted to a 102 (British Airways) Variant, where
|
||
214 more or less stayed as a Variant 192. I'm not disputing what you say
|
||
about possible APU mountings (I guess it would HAVE to be at the front
|
||
section of the lower cargo hold somewhere) but I for one have certainly
|
||
never seen any evidence of them. I'm still trying to imagine where the
|
||
air inlet and exhausts would have to be arranged, not to mention
|
||
pneumatic services ducting/hydraulics. Wouldn't it be interesting to
|
||
find out? 
|
||
|
||
ChristiaanJBoth A/C 214 (OAG) and 216 (OAF) were Variant 192 A/C
|
||
(British Unsold A/C). 216 was later converted to a 102 (British Airways)
|
||
Variant, where 214 more or less stayed as a Variant 192. I'm not
|
||
disputing what you say about possible APU mountings (I guess it would
|
||
HAVE to be at the front section of the lower cargo hold somewhere) but I
|
||
for one have certainly never seen any evidence of them. I'm still trying
|
||
to imagine where the air inlet and exhausts would have to be arranged,
|
||
not to mention pneumatic services ducting/hydraulics. Wouldn't it be
|
||
interesting to find out?
|
||
|
||
 [](https://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5872914)
|
||
 16th Aug 2010, 15:17
|
||
\#[**12**](https://www.pprune.org/5873326-post12.html)
|
||
(**[permalink](https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/423988-concorde-question.html#post5873326 "Link to this Post")**)
|
||
[Dan Winterland](https://www.pprune.org/members/2724-dan-winterland)
|
||
|
||
Join Date: Jun 2001
|
||
|
||
Location: Fragrant Harbour
|
||
|
||
Posts: 4,484
|
||
|
||
The original BOAC/BA VC10s didn't have APUs either. The ones converted
|
||
to K4s for the RAF had to have them fitted.
|
||
|
||
|
||
[](https://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5873326)
|
||
 16th Aug 2010, 15:18
|
||
\#[**13**](https://www.pprune.org/5873329-post13.html)
|
||
(**[permalink](https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/423988-concorde-question.html#post5873329 "Link to this Post")**)
|
||
[ChristiaanJ](https://www.pprune.org/members/105267-christiaanj)
|
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|
||
Join Date: Jan 2005
|
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|
||
Location: France
|
||
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Posts: 2,319
|
||
|
||
Quote:
|
||
|
||
**M2dude** [](https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/423988-concorde-question.html#post5872914)
|
||
|
||
Originally Posted by
|
||
|
||
|
||
|
||
Wouldn't it be interesting to find out?
|
||
|
||
|
||
I can try asking around, but can't remember my original source - it
|
||
probably came up during a discussion of the MEPU on Delta Golf or on 01
|
||
several years ago. I very much doubt it would be mentioned explicitly in
|
||
the SRM (Structural Repair Manual).
|
||
IIRC the MEPU lived in the tail (I'll look it up), so it's not
|
||
impossible the APU was planned in the same location.
|
||
|
||
It would be, yes\!I can try asking around, but can't remember my
|
||
original source - it probably came up during a discussion of the MEPU on
|
||
Delta Golf or on 01 several years ago. I very much doubt it would be
|
||
mentioned explicitly in the SRM (Structural Repair Manual).IIRC the MEPU
|
||
lived in the tail (I'll look it up), so it's not impossible the APU was
|
||
planned in the same location.
|
||
|
||
|
||
[](https://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5873329)
|
||
 16th Aug 2010, 16:37
|
||
\#[**14**](https://www.pprune.org/5873511-post14.html)
|
||
(**[permalink](https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/423988-concorde-question.html#post5873511 "Link to this Post")**)
|
||
[ChristiaanJ](https://www.pprune.org/members/105267-christiaanj)
|
||
|
||
Join Date: Jan 2005
|
||
|
||
Location: France
|
||
|
||
Posts: 2,319
|
||
|
||
|
||
In the meantime, here's the MEPU exhaust in the tailcone of Delta Golf,
|
||
courtesy of Neil Walker.
|
||
|
||
|
||
|
||
CJ
|
||
|
||
Just looked up the MEPU in the 01 AFM, and indeed it's located in the
|
||
tail cone. I'll scan the page this evening.In the meantime, here's the
|
||
MEPU exhaust in the tailcone of Delta Golf, courtesy of Neil Walker.CJ
|
||
|
||
|
||
[](https://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5873511)
|
||
 16th Aug 2010, 19:53
|
||
\#[**15**](https://www.pprune.org/5873899-post15.html)
|
||
(**[permalink](https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/423988-concorde-question.html#post5873899 "Link to this Post")**)
|
||
[ChristiaanJ](https://www.pprune.org/members/105267-christiaanj)
|
||
|
||
Join Date: Jan 2005
|
||
|
||
Location: France
|
||
|
||
Posts: 2,319
|
||
|
||
|
||
|
||
|
||
|
||
|
||
|
||
Just scanned this off the Concorde 01 (G-AXDN) Flight Manual, and
|
||
cropped as much as possible.
|
||
|
||
|
||
[](https://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5873899)
|
||
 17th Aug 2010, 10:50
|
||
\#[**16**](https://www.pprune.org/5874791-post16.html)
|
||
(**[permalink](https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/423988-concorde-question.html#post5874791 "Link to this Post")**)
|
||
[M2dude](https://www.pprune.org/members/218153-m2dude)
|
||
|
||
Join Date: Jan 2008
|
||
|
||
Location: FL 600. West of Mongolia
|
||
|
||
Posts: 456
|
||
|
||
**through a fuel tank**, (Remember that tank 11 occupied the entire rear
|
||
fuselage between the rear cargo aft wall and the front of the tail
|
||
cone). then I don't think that this was really on. (It's quite possible
|
||
of course that I'm missing something here, it comes with age
|
||
).
|
||
As far as the MEPU goes, all it really did was drive 2 hydraulic pumps;
|
||
the Green System then powering the 40 KVA emergency generator; unless
|
||
you are going to use the APU for engine starting and ground air
|
||
conditioning, then I honestly don't think that there would be much
|
||
point. It's interesting also to note that the MPU, being a rocket motor,
|
||
needed no air intake, and as it was not driving any huge loads, the
|
||
exhaust duct dould be quite narrow.
|
||
|
||
|
||
Hi Christiaan, yes THAT was the MEPU (Good photo of G-BBDG by the way).
|
||
As far as fitting an APU in the tail cone, I still personally think that
|
||
UNLESS you are prepared to pass a sizable pneumatic duct, (Remember that
|
||
tank 11 occupied the entire rear fuselage between the rear cargo aft
|
||
wall and the front of the tail cone). then I don't think that this was
|
||
really on. (It's quite possible of course that I'm missing something
|
||
here, it comes with age).As far as the MEPU goes, all it really did was
|
||
drive 2 hydraulic pumps; the Green System then powering the 40 KVA
|
||
emergency generator; unless you are going to use the APU for engine
|
||
starting and ground air conditioning, then I honestly don't think that
|
||
there would be much point. It's interesting also to note that the MPU,
|
||
being a rocket motor, needed no air intake, and as it was not driving
|
||
any huge loads, the exhaust duct dould be quite narrow.
|
||
|
||
 [](https://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5874791)
|
||
 17th Aug 2010, 14:33
|
||
\#[**17**](https://www.pprune.org/5875273-post17.html)
|
||
(**[permalink](https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/423988-concorde-question.html#post5875273 "Link to this Post")**)
|
||
[ChristiaanJ](https://www.pprune.org/members/105267-christiaanj)
|
||
|
||
Join Date: Jan 2005
|
||
|
||
Location: France
|
||
|
||
Posts: 2,319
|
||
|
||
|
||
|
||
Nice set of photos of "The Thing" here :
|
||
[MEPU at MAE at le
|
||
Bourget](http://f-wtss.over-blog.com/article-15380845.html).
|
||
This one is at the Air and Space Museum at Le Bourget, near Paris. My
|
||
guess is that is was a spare, since the manufacturing date is 1973. 'SA
|
||
flew in January '73 and 'SB in December '73.
|
||
IIRC, Delta Golf arrived at Brooklands with the MEPU still in place; I
|
||
might have a photo.
|
||
|
||
As to the installation, we're obviously thinking along the same
|
||
lines....
|
||
|
||
However, there were already several conduits through tank 11, such as
|
||
hydraulics for the tail wheel, various electrics, and the 'backbone'
|
||
fuel manifolds, that ended at the fuel jettison port in the tailcone.
|
||
A couple of fairly substantial air ducts would only have displaced a few
|
||
hundred kgs of fuel at the most, out of the more than 10,000 kgs in tank
|
||
11.
|
||
|
||
And yes, of course, the whole point of the APU would be to have
|
||
independent ground start and ground airco available, so clearly an APU
|
||
would have been bigger and heavier than the MEPU (which was only just
|
||
over 80 lbs), plus the problem of the air intake and bigger exhaust.
|
||
I'd have to get the drawings out to see how easy or difficult it would
|
||
have been to fit one in the available space.
|
||
|
||
Since the tailcone was BAC, and both 214 and 216 were built at Filton, I
|
||
wonder if anybody there still remembers?
|
||
|
||
M2dude,Nice set of photos of "The Thing" here :This one is at the Air
|
||
and Space Museum at Le Bourget, near Paris. My guess is that is was a
|
||
spare, since the manufacturing date is 1973. 'SA flew in January '73 and
|
||
'SB in December '73.IIRC, Delta Golf arrived at Brooklands with the MEPU
|
||
still in place; I might have a photo.As to the installation, we're
|
||
obviously thinking along the same lines....However, there were already
|
||
several conduits through tank 11, such as hydraulics for the tail wheel,
|
||
various electrics, and the 'backbone' fuel manifolds, that ended at the
|
||
fuel jettison port in the tailcone.A couple of fairly substantial air
|
||
ducts would only have displaced a few hundred kgs of fuel at the most,
|
||
out of the more than 10,000 kgs in tank 11.And yes, of course, the whole
|
||
point of the APU would be to have independent ground start and ground
|
||
airco available, so clearly an APU would have been bigger and heavier
|
||
than the MEPU (which was only just over 80 lbs), plus the problem of the
|
||
air intake and bigger exhaust.I'd have to get the drawings out to see
|
||
how easy or difficult it would have been to fit one in the available
|
||
space.Since the tailcone was BAC, and both 214 and 216 were built at
|
||
Filton, I wonder if anybody there still remembers?
|
||
|
||
|
||
[](https://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5875273)
|
||
 18th Aug 2010, 12:27
|
||
\#[**18**](https://www.pprune.org/5877465-post18.html)
|
||
(**[permalink](https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/423988-concorde-question.html#post5877465 "Link to this Post")**)
|
||
[M2dude](https://www.pprune.org/members/218153-m2dude)
|
||
|
||
Join Date: Jan 2008
|
||
|
||
Location: FL 600. West of Mongolia
|
||
|
||
Posts: 456
|
||
|
||
|
||
Thanks for the MEPU link, that really brings back memories (or was that
|
||
nightmares ). I remember at Fairford, a small drop of
|
||
Hydrazine leaked onto the hangar floor; the next thing you heard was a
|
||
really loud crack, and a after the smoke cleared, there was a sizable
|
||
hole in the floor.
|
||
I'd still really like to know what the 'thoughts' on this APU issue
|
||
actually were. Although as you rightly point out tank 11 already had a
|
||
fair amount of 'plumbing' running through it, we are talking here about
|
||
a duct with sufficient size that can provide enough mass flow to turn
|
||
over an Olympus engine to at least between 10 and 20% N2. You are
|
||
looking at an least 10" diameter duct, not including the copious amounts
|
||
of thermal insulation surrounding it, as well as an extremely sensitive
|
||
overtemperature protection system. (This tank is going to be near empty,
|
||
filled with fuel vapour). I'm not really convinced that this idea would
|
||
even be considered by the CAA/DGAC/FAA etc. for safety reasons alone.
|
||
Still, it's food for thought though
|
||
|
||
|
||
ChristiaanJThanks for the MEPU link, that really brings back memories
|
||
(or was that nightmares). I remember at Fairford, a small drop of
|
||
Hydrazine leaked onto the hangar floor; the next thing you heard was a
|
||
really loud crack, and a after the smoke cleared, there was a sizable
|
||
hole in the floor.I'd still really like to know what the 'thoughts' on
|
||
this APU issue actually were. Although as you rightly point out tank 11
|
||
already had a fair amount of 'plumbing' running through it, we are
|
||
talking here about a duct with sufficient size that can provide enough
|
||
mass flow to turn over an Olympus engine to at least between 10 and 20%
|
||
N2. You are looking at an least 10" diameter duct, not including the
|
||
copious amounts of thermal insulation surrounding it, as well as an
|
||
extremely sensitive overtemperature protection system. (This tank is
|
||
going to be near empty, filled with fuel vapour). I'm not really
|
||
convinced that this idea would even be considered by the CAA/DGAC/FAA
|
||
etc. for safety reasons alone.Still, it's food for thought though
|
||
|
||
 [](https://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5877465)
|
||
 18th Aug 2010, 16:19
|
||
\#[**19**](https://www.pprune.org/5878005-post19.html)
|
||
(**[permalink](https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/423988-concorde-question.html#post5878005 "Link to this Post")**)
|
||
[Biggles78](https://www.pprune.org/members/297800-biggles78)
|
||
|
||
Join Date: Apr 2009
|
||
|
||
Location: \`
|
||
|
||
Posts: 301
|
||
|
||
 No, I am
|
||
really not that stupid to think it was all used for trim but I am
|
||
beginning to realise just how little I knew about this technological
|
||
wonder of the skies. Also wish someone had recorded her being rolled
|
||
(like the B707 when being displayed). Now that would be something that
|
||
would stand along side the noise abatement takeoff or maybe not. The T/O
|
||
is impressive\!\!
|
||
|
||
M2dude and ChristiaanJ, please keep posting any anecdotes that you
|
||
remember about this incredible aeroplane. It really is fascinating
|
||
learning about the technical side from those who actually knew her.
|
||
|
||
10,000kg in a trim tank?No, I am really not that stupid to think it was
|
||
all used for trim but I am beginning to realise just how little I knew
|
||
about this technological wonder of the skies. Also wish someone had
|
||
recorded her being rolled (like the B707 when being displayed). Now that
|
||
would be something that would stand along side the noise abatement
|
||
takeoff or maybe not. The T/O is impressive\!\!M2dude and ChristiaanJ,
|
||
please keep posting any anecdotes that you remember about this
|
||
incredible aeroplane. It really is fascinating learning about the
|
||
technical side from those who actually knew her.
|
||
|
||
 [](https://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5878005)
|
||
 18th Aug 2010, 21:24
|
||
\#[**20**](https://www.pprune.org/5878555-post20.html)
|
||
(**[permalink](https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/423988-concorde-question.html#post5878555 "Link to this Post")**)
|
||
[ChristiaanJ](https://www.pprune.org/members/105267-christiaanj)
|
||
|
||
Join Date: Jan 2005
|
||
|
||
Location: France
|
||
|
||
Posts: 2,319
|
||
|
||
|
||
|
||
Re the MEPU at the Le Bourget museum...
|
||
The story I just got was that it was taken off F-WTSA or F-WTSB at
|
||
Roissy for a fault and replaced (both 'SA and 'SB operated out of Roissy
|
||
around '74 / '75 for things like route proving, etc.).
|
||
It got left on a shelf in a store, and was only discovered again in 2003
|
||
during the "big clean-out" and was saved 'in extremis' by somebody who
|
||
recognised it for what it was, stopped it from being 'binned' and took
|
||
it over to the museum.
|
||
|
||
|
||
Quote:
|
||
|
||
Originally Posted by **Biggles78**
|
||
|
||
10,000kg in a trim tank? No, I am really not that stupid to think it was
|
||
all used for trim
|
||
|
||
|
||
So yes, you're right, essentially all of it was "useable" fuel, it did
|
||
not serve only for the trim.
|
||
|
||
|
||
Quote:
|
||
|
||
Also wish someone had recorded her being rolled (like the B707 when
|
||
being displayed).
|
||
Jock Lowe seems to have stated there is a photo.... and we all still
|
||
wonder if there is some footage taken from the Lear Jet during the
|
||
filming of "Airport 79". But none is publicly known to exist ... we just
|
||
know it's been done\!
|
||
|
||
M2dude,Re the MEPU at the Le Bourget museum...The story I just got was
|
||
that it was taken off F-WTSA or F-WTSB at Roissy for a fault and
|
||
replaced (both 'SA and 'SB operated out of Roissy around '74 / '75 for
|
||
things like route proving, etc.).It got left on a shelf in a store, and
|
||
was only discovered again in 2003 during the "big clean-out" and was
|
||
saved 'in extremis' by somebody who recognised it for what it was,
|
||
stopped it from being 'binned' and took it over to the museum.Initially
|
||
of couse it was. It was not until the return to subsonic, towards the
|
||
end of the flight, that the contents of the n° 11 trim tank were moved
|
||
forward again to the other tanks.So yes, you're right, essentially all
|
||
of it was "useable" fuel, it did not serve only for the trim.Don't we
|
||
all....Jock Lowe seems to have stated there is a photo.... and we all
|
||
still wonder if there is some footage taken from the Lear Jet during the
|
||
filming of "Airport 79". But none is publicly known to exist ... we just
|
||
know it's been done\!
|
||
|
||
|
||
[](https://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5878555)
|
||
|
||
[](https://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=5878555)
|
||
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